Sponsored

Hypothetical Breakdown

OP
OP

Larry

Active Member
First Name
Larry
Joined
Jul 6, 2021
Threads
1
Messages
42
Reaction score
35
Location
PA
Vehicles
Ford Ranger
Occupation
Retired

crashmtb

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2021
Threads
1
Messages
4,725
Reaction score
7,238
Location
Man oh Manitoba
Vehicles
2002 aluminium garden shed TD5
I sure can’t say that about my Mach-E. It’s probably the least reliable vehicle I’ve ever owned. Of course it’s less mechanical problems and more software. After 25+ years in IT I know a botched software development project when I see one.
Found On Road Dead isn’t just a gas powered thing ?
 

Max

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2021
Threads
35
Messages
1,534
Reaction score
2,351
Location
Maryland
Vehicles
Nissan Truck
I sure can’t say that about my Mach-E. It’s probably the least reliable vehicle I’ve ever owned. Of course it’s less mechanical problems and more software. After 25+ years in IT I know a botched software development project when I see one.
That is a big part of my hesitation. Not just possibility of bad design but the attemp to make it better. Almost everyone I met is drooling over OTA. I on the other hand am a bit paranoid about it. I have seen too may software updates that have broken something that was working before. Pressure to get something out and lack of resources to test every possible combination sometime result in someone missing something. When that happens on my tablet, that usually means an app not working correctly that I could live without for a while. On a 7000 Ib robot that is zooming down the road in the middle of traffic with me and my family in it, a different story. I hope there is a confirm, delay, skip and especially rollback option.
 

Forager

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Threads
13
Messages
734
Reaction score
1,086
Location
PNW
Vehicles
R1T
Occupation
Structural Engineer
Clubs
 
Ditto. I’m weary of OTA being oft quoted as a salve for potential issues. I’m more worried about hardware problems, which OTA isn’t likely to fix.
 

Sponsored

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Threads
9
Messages
2,883
Reaction score
2,319
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla XLR+2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, R1T
Occupation
EE Retired
I am anticipating the rivian will be more reliable than any internal combustion vehicle I’ve owned. A low bar, but attainable. After all, there are far fewer moving parts.
You have to stop thinking of it as a mechanical device. It has mechanical parts, of course, and they do fail but as there are fewer of them the don't fail often. Peoples' BEV don't brick very often because bearings or fuel pumps fail. They brick because of software glitches. Think of your experiences with computers, not cars, in anticipating what you will experience with BEV failure. When it happens you do what you do with your computer: reboot. On the Tesla's that's done by simultaneously pressing a button on the steering wheel with each of your thumbs. I used to say that you could always spot the Tesla drivers in a crowd. They are the guys with calluses on their thumbs.

The real problems (roadside stranding) occur when you can't reboot. You might as well have a broken half shaft. You can't operate the car either way.

There are, of course, tricks that can be used to induce a reboot beyond pressing the two buttons when that doesn't work such as disconnecting the low voltage battery and opening the First Responder loop but they don't always work.

Also let me mention that the car can be driven with a crashed computer depending on which computer crashes. You may not have any displays but you can at least move the car off the road or even drive it a couple of miles home (if you are close). Don't know if Rivian will allow that.
 

E.S.

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2021
Threads
4
Messages
825
Reaction score
1,057
Location
Florida
Vehicles
Chevy Bolt
Occupation
Retired
Say I find myself sitting on the roadside with a dead Rivian. My home and the nearest Rivian facility are hundreds of miles away.

Now what?
I loathe this scenario. With the exception of being caught with your proverbial pants down by nature, in today's world there should be almost zero reasons anyone should find themselves running out of fuel (applies to both combustion and electric vehicles). There is just too much tech that will notify one that not only are you low on fuel, but (especially for electrics) also maps out where the nearest refueling station is including pre-planning a course to take advantage of what station to stop at so one can charge.

Yeah, there is roadside assistance, but you really have to go out of your way to be oblivious to the fuel notification and route planning in EVs.
 

DuckTruck

Well-Known Member
First Name
Duck
Joined
Dec 23, 2020
Threads
36
Messages
2,352
Reaction score
6,287
Location
PNW
Vehicles
Corvair, BMW325, Acura Legend, XC60, '16 Caddy ELR
Clubs
 
That is a big part of my hesitation. Not just possibility of bad design but the attemp to make it better. Almost everyone I met is drooling over OTA. I on the other hand am a bit paranoid about it. I have seen too may software updates that have broken something that was working before. Pressure to get something out and lack of resources to test every possible combination sometime result in someone missing something. When that happens on my tablet, that usually means an app not working correctly that I could live without for a while. On a 7000 Ib robot that is zooming down the road in the middle of traffic with me and my family in it, a different story. I hope there is a confirm, delay, skip and especially rollback option.
I believe it's for these very reasons that RJ said they want to control the entire stack of hardware and corresponding software in their vehicles.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Max

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Threads
9
Messages
2,883
Reaction score
2,319
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla XLR+2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, R1T
Occupation
EE Retired
in today's world there should be almost zero reasons anyone should find themselves running out of fuel
It's pretty obvious from both the OP and the responses that he is not talking about running out of kWh in the middle of nowhere. If that happens you call any company with a flat bed and have him transport you to the nearest charger. That is not at all the traumatic experience that comes when the nearest towing service that has a contract with Tesla is 150 miles away and the nearest Tesla repair center 250.
 

Sponsored

Max

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2021
Threads
35
Messages
1,534
Reaction score
2,351
Location
Maryland
Vehicles
Nissan Truck
I believe it's for these very reasons that RJ said they want to control the entire stack of hardware and corresponding software in their vehicles.
I don’t know if this is true but some suspect the new heating issues with Tesla was caused by a software update. Even if not true, I know it can happen.

I have no doubt Rivian has some of the smartest people in industry working there and RJ has the best of intentions however they are all human. All I want is some control over MY vehicle so I can delay the updates or skip them if other owners report issues with it or roll back if I see a problem. This way owners can help Rivian troubleshoot and minimize the impact.
 
OP
OP

Larry

Active Member
First Name
Larry
Joined
Jul 6, 2021
Threads
1
Messages
42
Reaction score
35
Location
PA
Vehicles
Ford Ranger
Occupation
Retired
You have to stop thinking of it as a mechanical device. It has mechanical parts, of course, and they do fail but as there are fewer of them the don't fail often. Peoples' BEV don't brick very often because bearings or fuel pumps fail. They brick because of software glitches. Think of your experiences with computers, not cars, in anticipating what you will experience with BEV failure. When it happens you do what you do with your computer: reboot. On the Tesla's that's done by simultaneously pressing a button on the steering wheel with each of your thumbs. I used to say that you could always spot the Tesla drivers in a crowd. They are the guys with calluses on their thumbs.

The real problems (roadside stranding) occur when you can't reboot. You might as well have a broken half shaft. You can't operate the car either way.

There are, of course, tricks that can be used to induce a reboot beyond pressing the two buttons when that doesn't work such as disconnecting the low voltage battery and opening the First Responder loop but they don't always work.

Also let me mention that the car can be driven with a crashed computer depending on which computer crashes. You may not have any displays but you can at least move the car off the road or even drive it a couple of miles home (if you are close). Don't know if Rivian will allow that.
With my Mach-E the biggest problems relate to the 12V battery. It is allegedly kept charged by the HVB but sometimes that fails. That can leave you unable to enter the vehicle let alone reboot without an external power source.

It’s current 8 day visit to the service department is about improperly installed glass roof and windshield.

I get lots of error messages in my phone but most can be ignored.
 
OP
OP

Larry

Active Member
First Name
Larry
Joined
Jul 6, 2021
Threads
1
Messages
42
Reaction score
35
Location
PA
Vehicles
Ford Ranger
Occupation
Retired
I loathe this scenario. With the exception of being caught with your proverbial pants down by nature, in today's world there should be almost zero reasons anyone should find themselves running out of fuel (applies to both combustion and electric vehicles). There is just too much tech that will notify one that not only are you low on fuel, but (especially for electrics) also maps out where the nearest refueling station is including pre-planning a course to take advantage of what station to stop at so one can charge.

Yeah, there is roadside assistance, but you really have to go out of your way to be oblivious to the fuel notification and route planning in EVs.
For all the reasons you mention, I’m not really concerned about fuel exhaustion. Past life experiences put avoiding that very high in my priority list (Airline Transport Pilot, Multi-Engine Land).

Those same experiences leave me with a penchant for planning my response to problems well before they happen.
 
Last edited:

DuckTruck

Well-Known Member
First Name
Duck
Joined
Dec 23, 2020
Threads
36
Messages
2,352
Reaction score
6,287
Location
PNW
Vehicles
Corvair, BMW325, Acura Legend, XC60, '16 Caddy ELR
Clubs
 
I don’t know if this is true but some suspect the new heating issues with Tesla was caused by a software update. Even if not true, I know it can happen.

I have no doubt Rivian has some of the smartest people in industry working there and RJ has the best of intentions however they are all human. All I want is some control over MY vehicle so I can delay the updates or skip them if other owners report issues with it or roll back if I see a problem. This way owners can help Rivian troubleshoot and minimize the impact.
Agreed! ??
 

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Threads
9
Messages
2,883
Reaction score
2,319
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla XLR+2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, R1T
Occupation
EE Retired
With my Mach-E the biggest problems relate to the 12V battery. It is allegedly kept charged by the HVB but sometimes that fails. That can leave you unable to enter the vehicle let alone reboot without an external power source.

It’s current 8 day visit to the service department is about improperly installed glass roof and windshield.
I certainly don't want to imply that there are not problems other than those caused by software. I is just that most of the problems stem from that. And sometimes the fact that software is the villain is not clear. Your low voltage battery problem is probably a software problem. My inability to position the passenger seat was a software problem. But my inability to position the drivers seat was a mechanical one. I've also had gaskets and seals fall off... but the things that eat your lunch are most likely to be software related.

Interestingly enough the same is evidently true with ICE vehicles. I saw an interview with a high up in one of the major manufacturers in which he said that only 15% of repairs were in the guts of the engines,
Sponsored

 
 








Top