F-150 Lightning announced pricing pushing buyers to Rivian

[cgm9999]

The promise of $40,000 BEV Trucks by both Ford and Tesla seems disingenuous.

Seems disingenuous? You're far too kind. It is disingenuous.

To put this claim in perspective, the average new car price in 2021 was around $40,000. The idea that Ford will produce a brand new electric F-150 with anything more than four wheels, a steering wheel, a battery, two motors, and a bed for $40,000 is beyond naive.

The Ford Lightning pre-orderers that don't follow the automotive landscape like many car enthusiasts do will be in for a rude awakening when the realize that the $40,000 price tag will essentially get them a vehicle with less creature comforts than a base 1999 VW Jetta.

Case in point: my coworker reserved a Lightning months ago largely due to the quoted $40,000 price tag that made headlines. I told him essentially everything we know now - that that price will only apply to a base model vehicle that won't appeal to the typical shopper that has become accustomed to heated/ventilated seats, panoramic sunroofs, passive safety systems, adaptive cruise control, etc. etc. etc. and that the average Lightning rolling off the assembly line will cost more like $70k to $80k. He was incredulous said there'd be no way. Today, I emailed him the link to the Lightning configurator as a "told you so".

I think this reveals how out-of-touch the average car shopper is. I speak with many people on a regular basis that are completely oblivious to what $40,000 gets you in terms of a new car today.

In the year 2022, $40k gets you a fully loaded VW GTI. If you want something more like a truck than a compact hatchback, you might be able to squeak your way into a full-size crew cab pick up if you're willing to settle for cloth seats, 2 wheel drive, a short bed, and naturally aspirated V6. In other words, poverty spec.

The vast majority of people shopping for a Lightning aren't willing to settle for such a build and Ford knows this. Yet, they paraded that $40k a la Tesla knowing full well that maybe 5% of sales will consist of the "Pro" model.

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[ads75]

The dealer reservation system, where you pick a dealer, plunk down $100, pick exactly what you want, and they feel the right to fleece you for thousands of dollars. And because people generally buy vehicles infrequently, the dealer feels they win if they fleece you now, and aren't worried about repeat business.

But I do know there are dealers out there that are MSRP for reservation holders, but you generally hear only about the bad ones.

 

[cgm9999]

Why is Rivians value proposition better? Because you personally like Rivian better? $73k doesn't include leather... does Rivian offer leather at all? You can call it "Vegan leather" to sound cool but it's not a special material.

It's all in the eye of the buyer. If nothing else.. being made by a company that has actually built cars before is a pretty big sell over Rivian. To each their own.

Clickbaity thread title.

You're right - to each their own. But for me, who has had many vehicles in my lifetime (as well as 2 modern Fords), and pays close attention to the automotive world, the value proposition skews more towards Rivian than Ford.

Yes, Ford has manufactured vehicles for over a century. Yet, if you've been in a Ford lately, you'd know that it seems they've totally forgotten how to build cars. The Ford Explorer/Lincoln Aviator - a major, major vehicle roll-out for Ford - has gone over like a lead balloon. Poor build quality, record setting recalls, and manufacturing defects have defined the launch of these vehicles and continues to plague them years later. And we're not talking about a bespoke Ford GT situation here, either. These represent the bread and butter for Ford and yet, despite being yet another basic unibody-based crossover, they somehow managed to act like a company that hasn't built anything before.

To me, it's a wash in terms of vehicle production history. Ford's abysmal recent production history vs. Rivian's non-existent history - take your pick. That said, there's whole other factor people forget to take into consideration here: what happens when your vehicle needs servicing when it goes bad?

With Ford, it's the stone ages. It might as well be 1989 all over again. You struggle to make an appointment within the week, take time off work to drop off your vehicle, get quoted for having the vehicle done by the end of the day, go without a loaner since you own a Ford and not a luxury marque, drop off the spouse/kids to work/school in the spouse's car, get into work an hour or two late, wait all day for an update from the service advisor that never comes, call the dealership the next morning and get told that your car won't be done for another two days, have a conniption fit with an idiot service advisor 5 minutes after picking up your Ford because they either didn't fix the original issue like they said they did/damaged your vehicle in the process of fixing your vehicle and on and on and on. Rinse, repeat, ad nauseam. That's a major reason why I wouldn't consider a Lightning - or any other new vehicle from the Big 3 for that matter - the dealer network is garbage and I'm at a place in my life now where I don't have the time or patience for that nonsense anymore.

At least with Rivian, it's all white glove service. Even if you have a lemon, you don't have to jump through flaming hoops to service your vehicle. For me, that's the value proposition. If you have $80k+ to spend on a vehicle, I suspect you're like me and have more pressing matters than dicking around with knuckle-draggers at the local dealership.

 

[Harvest]

First of all, I'm glad Ford is making a major commitment to EVs and is pushing hard to move their number one selling vehicle to all electric (at least some of the sales). I'm not surprised that to get even roughly the equivalent of the R1T its in the mid to upper 70k range based on the configurator. It will be interesting to do a more true side by side comparison when additional details are out.

In the past I had a Ford F150 for work (agricultural research) and then a Toyota Tundra, so I'm familiar with full sized pickups for hauling and towing. I no longer have a work truck, but for me the number one reason I won't consider the Ford Lightning is that it is too big for my garage. I do like Ford's vehicle to house power option - I really hope we see that with the Rivian's as RJ has said will eventually happen. I also think the Rivian R1T is likely to have better ride quality (a big deal to me), based on reviews so far, and more overall innovation.

I can understand some want a larger bed, but as someone who has hauled a wide variety of items over the years, if I really need to haul something bigger, I can lower the tailgate or use a trailer. With the tailgate down, the R1T will have about as long of bed length as a typical Ford150 crew cab set up (7 feet).

I also am personally buying into the direction of Rivian as a company with their sustainability goals and vision for the future. That's meaningful to me, and I don't think it's just hyped based on their actions to date.

 

[Canthoney]

My thoughts on the matter;

Ford has to protect its margins and they know what trims the money will be made with. The pro model may be available at $39.9k but it's more marketing fluff to get the media to say, "look Ford is making their bestseller an electric version that will crush the competition under $40K! and will never be made in large volume (akin to Tesla's Model 3 $35k model). You can see that from the projected sales per trim in the dealer notes on the lightning forum. And it looks like they are chaining the extended range battery with a $9,500 package option, so the cheapest possible extended range is ~$73k. So they are either protecting margins on their F-150s, or they're making a small profit from these trucks, and have to charge this much. It's actually pretty genius of them, because it makes them look affordable to the average consumer, and investors interested in their transition to EVS, but when a real customer orders one they'll be in for a big surprise.

Also, just think about the Tesla cyber track for a moment. They don't have prices listed anymore, they've delayed the thing a couple of years since they first announced it. And they've made changes on the fly to adjust to the new competition. Like the crabwalk and quad motors. So I think they are going to raise prices drastically, and not even produce a bottle at $39k. Either that or it's going to be very bare-bones and crappy compared to the other models kind of like the $35k Model 3.

Honestly, this tells me a couple things about Rivian as well. Based on the current prices of EVs compared to ICEs, which is a delta of around $15-$20k apples to apples, (think CR-V base vs ID.4 base) Rivian is going to be selling these things at a loss, but I don't know how large of one, and I suspect a large increase to prices soon. Obviously once they reach mass productions, and get economies of scale in their favor prices will come down, but I suspect that they are not close to breaking even on these, especially when you compared them to every other manufacturer. I understand they are start up, and will be spending an ungodly amount of money. It's especially impressive that they're charging this amount for the R1T/S for the performance, luxury, battery size, and features when you factor in when they announced the prices initially and all of the outside pressures such as inflation, supply chain issues, etc. It's almost an unbelievably good deal. These are just my general observations, and I am very bullish on there long-term future.

So while Rivian is a very good deal compared to the F-150 Lightning, Hummer, and probably the Silverado EV (we'll see tomorrow), I don't know if they're doing it to get people into the brand and will start ratcheting things up once they get established which I suspect they will.

Interested to see what everyone else thinks

 

[Ribeye]

Don't forget about dealer markup! This is going to happen a lot! Once people see what the final price out the door is, they are not going to buy it.

Dealer mark-up? What is this “value add” you speak of? If I recall correctly, one of the underlying premises in the IL Dealer v Direct To Consumer litigation was that dealers protected the consumer from unsavory manufacturers.

 

[Jsidell]

Here's the Electric Silverado (debuted a day early/found on Insta).

 

[Alan C]

I’ve been following several Lightning forums. Ford just released pricing for the Lightning and a lot of reservation holders are unhappy. The XLT with Extended Range (300 miles) comes in at $73K and doesn’t even include leather. The Lariat with ER comes in at $79K……Rivian’s value proposition is much higher than Ford here. I’m guessing Rivian reservations increase.

I just hope Rivian doesn’t raise their prices to align with Ford.

Weighing up the two vehicles Rivian would still win for my money, R1T has been specifically designed as an EV F150 is an ICE vehicle that's been converted to EV. The details in design tell the story and will tell in use.

 

[Revo]

560 hp dual motor vs. 800hp quad motor?

No! 835HP lol ??

 

[ja_kub_sz]

Why is Rivians value proposition better? Because you personally like Rivian better? $73k doesn't include leather... does Rivian offer leather at all? You can call it "Vegan leather" to sound cool but it's not a special material.

It's all in the eye of the buyer. If nothing else.. being made by a company that has actually built cars before is a pretty big sell over Rivian. To each their own.

Clickbaity thread title.

Value?... Nope... But guess which one drives further, tows more and is a better truck?

 

[ja_kub_sz]

But remember... The "free money" credits are gonna make this 73k faux-truck a bargain.

I wonder how much those credits Ford lobbied so hard for were factored into the pricing structure for these vehicles?

Seems like Ford priced itself out of their current Ford truck owners driveway with this latest revelation, and 280 miles for a 91k Platinum?... I saw this one coming.

 

[ja_kub_sz]

@Canthoney I agree with you completely on the insane value the R1T offers, hence why I can't wrap my head around how they can sell these EV's for the price they have online.

I've been worried about the impending price hike, but I don't think it'll happen until Rivian can offer up a cheaper version of the R1T. But totally could see Rivian raising prices once they announce the smaller pack model and have it up online to order.

So get your orders in ASAP!

 

[DuckTruck]

I saw a report a couple of days ago that said they've seen as much as $30K in some cases.

I know it happens, but that blows my mind! Pay $30k above the manufacturer's recommended selling price? For a depreciating asset? Granted, some (very few) vehicles go up in value in after inflation-accounted dollars, but a Ford pickup isn't likely one of them.

I guess the heart wants what the heart wants. That said, I couldn't handle the derision I'd rightfully get from my Dad, and he's been dead for nine years! Even though he's gone, I can still hear him: "Jesus, kid! You're driving your net worth!"

I'll tell him about the Rivian later. Hopefully, much later. If anyone sees him sooner, please keep it quiet.... ?

 

[DuckTruck]

Seems disingenuous? You're far too kind. It is disingenuous.

To put this claim in perspective, the average new car price in 2021 was around $40,000. The idea that Ford will produce a brand new electric F-150 with anything more than four wheels, a steering wheel, a battery, two motors, and a bed for $40,000 is beyond naive.

The Ford Lightning pre-orderers that don't follow the automotive landscape like many car enthusiasts do will be in for a rude awakening when the realize that the $40,000 price tag will essentially get them a vehicle with less creature comforts than a base 1999 VW Jetta.

Case in point: my coworker reserved a Lightning months ago largely due to the quoted $40,000 price tag that made headlines. I told him essentially everything we know now - that that price will only apply to a base model vehicle that won't appeal to the typical shopper that has become accustomed to heated/ventilated seats, panoramic sunroofs, passive safety systems, adaptive cruise control, etc. etc. etc. and that the average Lightning rolling off the assembly line will cost more like $70k to $80k. He was incredulous said there'd be no way. Today, I emailed him the link to the Lightning configurator as a "told you so".

I think this reveals how out-of-touch the average car shopper is. I speak with many people on a regular basis that are completely oblivious to what $40,000 gets you in terms of a new car today.

In the year 2022, $40k gets you a fully loaded VW GTI. If you want something more like a truck than a compact hatchback, you might be able to squeak your way into a full-size crew cab pick up if you're willing to settle for cloth seats, 2 wheel drive, a short bed, and naturally aspirated V6. In other words, poverty spec.

The vast majority of people shopping for a Lightning aren't willing to settle for such a build and Ford knows this. Yet, they paraded that $40k a la Tesla knowing full well that maybe 5% of sales will consist of the "Pro" model.

cgm,

You're so right! I was intentionally being far too kind, and sarcastic, all at the same time. I do feel for the few friends of mine that got sucked into this "$40k" hype from both Ford and Tesla. Like your friend, they truly believe it's going to happen.

I chuckled when I read "The idea that Ford will produce a brand new electric F-150 with anything more than four wheels, a steering wheel, a battery, two motors, and a bed for $40,000 is beyond naive." I thought "cgm is absolutely right, Ford's going to charge them a King's ransom for that fifth, spare wheel and tire combo, on top of everything else [yes, I know, theyre not alone in doing this]. Then comes the supply-chain increases and chip shortage issues, then the wooden park bench seats (with a charge for termite treatment), then the ADM from the dealer". Hopefully, they didn't dump their '99 Jetta already....

On top of that, while Ford isn't that far down the road selling EVs, they've burned through a good number of tax credits already. With the Mach-E, Electric Focus, and e-Transit lines already sold, the 200,000+ Lightnings being produced means a good percentage of those later buyers will miss out on the tax break. This is especially true as the Mach-E gobbles up credits like a drunken Pac-Man.

Time for a little math:

Insult + Injury + ADM + Low Range - Tax Incentive = ??????

"And the answer is...... <Satistactory !!!"
(I know, understatement, right?)

No Bueno!

 

[Cavalryscout18]

You're right - to each their own. But for me, who has had many vehicles in my lifetime (as well as 2 modern Fords), and pays close attention to the automotive world, the value proposition skews more towards Rivian than Ford.

Yes, Ford has manufactured vehicles for over a century. Yet, if you've been in a Ford lately, you'd know that it seems they've totally forgotten how to build cars. The Ford Explorer/Lincoln Aviator - a major, major vehicle roll-out for Ford - has gone over like a lead balloon. Poor build quality, record setting recalls, and manufacturing defects have defined the launch of these vehicles and continues to plague them years later. And we're not talking about a bespoke Ford GT situation here, either. These represent the bread and butter for Ford and yet, despite being yet another basic unibody-based crossover, they somehow managed to act like a company that hasn't built anything before.

To me, it's a wash in terms of vehicle production history. Ford's abysmal recent production history vs. Rivian's non-existent history - take your pick. That said, there's whole other factor people forget to take into consideration here: what happens when your vehicle needs servicing when it goes bad?

With Ford, it's the stone ages. It might as well be 1989 all over again. You struggle to make an appointment within the week, take time off work to drop off your vehicle, get quoted for having the vehicle done by the end of the day, go without a loaner since you own a Ford and not a luxury marque, drop off the spouse/kids to work/school in the spouse's car, get into work an hour or two late, wait all day for an update from the service advisor that never comes, call the dealership the next morning and get told that your car won't be done for another two days, have a conniption fit with an idiot service advisor 5 minutes after picking up your Ford because they either didn't fix the original issue like they said they did/damaged your vehicle in the process of fixing your vehicle and on and on and on. Rinse, repeat, ad nauseam. That's a major reason why I wouldn't consider a Lightning - or any other new vehicle from the Big 3 for that matter - the dealer network is garbage and I'm at a place in my life now where I don't have the time or patience for that nonsense anymore.

At least with Rivian, it's all white glove service. Even if you have a lemon, you don't have to jump through flaming hoops to service your vehicle. For me, that's the value proposition. If you have $80k+ to spend on a vehicle, I suspect you're like me and have more pressing matters than dicking around with knuckle-draggers at the local dealership.

I agree. Ford has been around for over a century and they build millions of vehicles but I would never consider buying a Ford. I’m sure the majority of their cars are adequate given their large scale manufacturing but adequate is unacceptable when paying $80,000 for a reasonably spec’d Lighting. Even today, I would rather risk going with a new Company like Rivian who is thinking outside the box vs Ford, who manufactures adequate cars but whose business model hasn’t changed in decades. On top of all that, you then have to deal with Ford dealerships and from what we know, the dealerships have wide latitude in final pricing plus all of your maintenance. You may get a nice vehicle from Ford but the entire experience can be ruined by a dealer. I’m sure there is pros on cons to Rivian’s direct approach method but I personally hate all of the games these dealers play.

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