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Easing concerns about (early) Rivian manufacturing quality?

SoCal Rob

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I worry about a companies ability to deliver frustration-free infotainment, especially as physical buttons go away.
Here is some info which may calm some of your concerns: Many of us have experience with tech which has few physical buttons, a touch screen, and sometimes frustrates us.

I think it’s safe to say that our Android and Apple phones and tablets share those characteristics. When there are usability issues, our phones and tablets can be updated by the manufacturer, remotely, as long as we have either Wi-Fi or cellular data. These over the air updates address bugs, add requested features, and generally improve the user experience.

My experience is that It is increasingly rare for network-connected devices to be shipped which don’t need an update as soon as you power them on the first time. If we learned to accept this from phones, tablets, smart watches, home routers, smart TVs, and even ovens, then I don’t think anyone will be at all surprised if the infotainment system in their new car requires updates after it is delivered to the purchaser.

This is the new normal.
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There are platforms with fundamental performance and stability issues. In cars - Volvo, Cadillac and Ford come to mind. Then with respect to over the air updates; I don’t want to turn this in to a Windows OS sucks discussion; but the whole platform there is a great example of one of the most well funded companies, with the engineering talent, who still fails to deliver a great product in the core operating system. And they still got monthly - weekly, even daily updates.

IMO, there are a lot of risks to navigate. I think performance, features and stability being key. All the rage right now is to try and deliver really visually appealing experiences - often with a major emphasis on 2D and 3D graphics. It is very easy for companies to poorly design, while aiming for the moon with visual appeal. Audi and Tesla (and soon Mercedes) have the enviable infotainment platforms. Which is to say; Toyota, Ford, Volvo, Hyundai, Lexus, Jeep, Chrysler, Honda, Dodge, and countless others offer second or even third class infotainment systems.

With the faux-images posted on Rivian.com, I can tell they are shooting for the moon, and are really throwing a lot of graphics heavy components on the screen. So I imagine they, too , can easily paint themselves in to a corner, as they wouldn’t be the first or the fifteenth to do it. They all keep trying, you can tell some people tried. But delivering a visually appealing, performance and feature-packed infotainment system isn’t a one-team or three-team type job. Not a lot of companies are investing in dozens of quality, 150k+/yr engineers (in any COL area). Being an automotive start-up and trying to launch 3 vehicles at the same time, while building a charging network, an EV charging system, a battery system, a vehicle platform, infotainment system, Autopilot-esque driver assistance system, retail storefronts, the list goes on - there are a lot of things being juggled, and everyone of these things are important. Any deficiency in any area will stick out like a sore thumb.

Tesla is pretty wild. They don’t care about vehicle build quality - to a point. They can fix it, if they wanted to. You know they can. It just doesn’t matter to their customers. You know they can fix it, because they literally funded software development resources to do what? To port over racing video games for their infotainment system. They literally spent development resources on making a cart fart. They go through manufacturing hell - for manufacturing capacity, not quality.

To your point about software development being the land where rapidly delivering products to markets and iteratively improving on them with OTA is the norm; Tesla seems to take the same approach to vehicles - and like software, it gets good, but to a point, and there isn’t enough bandwidth to focus on tech-debt that isn’t necessarily providing the most value to the customer.

So Tesla’s got a decade+ headstart. We seen how hard it was for Tesla; which makes me reset my expectations for Rivian. I am not expecting my R1S until Q2-Q3 2024. And I expect there to be issues, still.


Here is some info which may calm some of your concerns: Many of us have experience with tech which has few physical buttons, a touch screen, and sometimes frustrates us.

I think it’s safe to say that our Android and Apple phones and tablets share those characteristics. When there are usability issues, our phones and tablets can be updated by the manufacturer, remotely, as long as we have either Wi-Fi or cellular data. These over the air updates address bugs, add requested features, and generally improve the user experience.

My experience is that It is increasingly rare for network-connected devices to be shipped which don’t need an update as soon as you power them on the first time. If we learned to accept this from phones, tablets, smart watches, home routers, smart TVs, and even ovens, then I don’t think anyone will be at all surprised if the infotainment system in their new car requires updates after it is delivered to the purchaser.

This is the new normal.
 

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75k purchase. Not an insignificant amount of cash, if the resale tanks (let's say Rivian is a flop or has major setbacks and has to be sold for scraps to a big auto company, or private equity firm)

Sounds like a Rivian is not your cup of tea.
I certainly wouldn't buy a vehicle from a company that I felt as concerned about as you appear to be regarding Rivian.
 

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There are platforms with fundamental performance and stability issues. In cars - Volvo, Cadillac and Ford come to mind.
I'll push back here. Volvo's sensus system was rather slow to start when turning the car on circa 2017-2019 models. My understanding is they have addressed a lot of that. However, I haven't had any stability issues with my XC60, and complaints in the Volvo forums on about stability are fairly rare from what I recall last time I was around. The mach e infotainment system has some weird spots where it's slow, but I also suspect those are addressable via software updates (ie not a hardware issue). When test drive one, I didn't observe any noticable performance issues. Perusing Mach E forums, software complaints are minimal, and on a post that says asks what people don't like about their Mach E, the only complaint I found was slow UI at startup. Which my phone is too. It's expected.
 

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A bit of a glass half empty attitude maybe?...how about we wait to see on release and then base our options on actual experience? This seems like an academic exercise poking holes without any actual data...

I am not expecting my R1S until Q2-Q3 2024. And I expect there to be issues, still.
 

SoCal Rob

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Then with respect to over the air updates; I don’t want to turn this in to a Windows OS sucks discussion; but the whole platform there is a great example of one of the most well funded companies, with the engineering talent, who still fails to deliver a great product in the core operating system. And they still got monthly - weekly, even daily updates.
You’re worried about Rivian‘s infotainment because Microsoft with all its resources can’t stop patching Windows? I don’t think this is a valid comparison. Windows runs on a nearly limitless combination of hardware configurations. The system Rivian is designing is more like macOS because Rivian has control over the hardware for their system. Instead of Windows, I think macOS is a better comparison. Of course, even macOS has to be updated to add/change features, and it is patched as bugs and vulnerabilities are discovered.

Again, virtually every connected product I use needs OTA updates, too, including my oven. As with my oven, I expect that Rivian will focus on safety and core functionality first, then address the nice-to-have features, app functionality, etc.

Over time Rivian’s bug & patch updates should become less prominent until the next major release which adds major features or makes major changes to the GUI. Then the cycle starts again: bug & patch updates which become less frequent. This is a pretty standard cycle.

Regarding other manufacturers, I don’t believe everything written by critics. While I don’t have experience with Volvo’s system, I do have hands-on experience with Ford’s Sync3 and Cadillac’s Cue. Neither of those systems has exhibited fundamental performance and stability issues when I used them.

Everything else you wrote about Rivian struck me as speculation about a vehicle and infotainment system we haven’t seen or used in production form yet. Let’s see what they deliver and how quickly they address the industry-standard issues.
 

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I wasn't thinking about frequency of patching of windows. I was pointing out how Windows has gotten worse over time, and this is despite the availability of patches for the operating system. I would go as far as saying Windows has only gotten worse since Windows 2000. So 20 years later...and Microsoft keeps putting lipstick on a pig.

So if Microsoft can't build a good OS, then it really paints a picture about how even well funded companies with access to great developers can still provide a terrible product.

Then to your point about macOS controlling the hardware and the software stack - that makes defending bad infotainment systems all the harder. Because in the case of Ford, Honda, Volvo, etc - as you point out; they own everything - and yet it still sucks.

TLDR - there is a lot of crappy software out right now. And we can't expect Rivian to knock it out of the park, but we can hope. The lack of communication is only creating more doubt.


You’re worried about Rivian‘s infotainment because Microsoft with all its resources can’t stop patching Windows? I don’t think this is a valid comparison. Windows runs on a nearly limitless combination of hardware configurations. The system Rivian is designing is more like macOS because Rivian has control over the hardware for their system. Instead of Windows, I think macOS is a better comparison. Of course, even macOS has to be updated to add/change features, and it is patched as bugs and vulnerabilities are discovered.

Again, virtually every connected product I use needs OTA updates, too, including my oven. As with my oven, I expect that Rivian will focus on safety and core functionality first, then address the nice-to-have features, app functionality, etc.

Over time Rivian’s bug & patch updates should become less prominent until the next major release which adds major features or makes major changes to the GUI. Then the cycle starts again: bug & patch updates which become less frequent. This is a pretty standard cycle.

Regarding other manufacturers, I don’t believe everything written by critics. While I don’t have experience with Volvo’s system, I do have hands-on experience with Ford’s Sync3 and Cadillac’s Cue. Neither of those systems has exhibited fundamental performance and stability issues when I used them.

Everything else you wrote about Rivian struck me as speculation about a vehicle and infotainment system we haven’t seen or used in production form yet. Let’s see what they deliver and how quickly they address the industry-standard issues.
 

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Model S faced similar timeline for delay. Once the launch date is missed, we start with the rolling delays, and roughly 3 years later, we will get what we signed up for.

Tesla was only launching one vehicle, and they were delayed by 3 years. Given Rivian wants to launch 3 vehicles; my timeline might even me optimistic.

This reset in expectations gives room for Rivian to delight me. If I keep trusting RJ's promises, and really putting stock in those promises - I am setting myself up to be disappointed.

So instead of blindly following; I said to heck with it, I will make my own timeline. My timeline allows them to under promise and over deliver. IMO, their timeline is over promising and under delivering.

So when I get my R1S delivered in 2023, instead of Q3 2024, I can be really impressed. Whereas if I buy the line that R1S will get delivered in Q1 2022, and don't get it delivered until 2023, I would be disappointed.





A bit of a glass half empty attitude maybe?...how about we wait to see on release and then base our options on actual experience? This seems like an academic exercise poking holes without any actual data...
 

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spec·u·la·tion -
the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
The activity of guessing possible answers to a question without having enough information to be certain
hypothesis
supposition
Wild ass stab in the dark
There is a long list of ways we, as simple human beings, fill in the blanks with imagination when we have no real information. Until we hear from an authoritative source all the emotion wrapped up in guessing is wasted. Even when there is authoritative info we sometimes choose to question it. We don't know about a glove box, frankly who cares. I can deal with putting my gloves on the back seat like I do now with my glove box full of junk.
 

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I wasn't thinking about frequency of patching of windows. I was pointing out how Windows has gotten worse over time, and this is despite the availability of patches for the operating system. I would go as far as saying Windows has only gotten worse since Windows 2000. So 20 years later...and Microsoft keeps putting lipstick on a pig.

So if Microsoft can't build a good OS, then it really paints a picture about how even well funded companies with access to great developers can still provide a terrible product.

Then to your point about macOS controlling the hardware and the software stack - that makes defending bad infotainment systems all the harder. Because in the case of Ford, Honda, Volvo, etc - as you point out; they own everything - and yet it still sucks.

TLDR - there is a lot of crappy software out right now. And we can't expect Rivian to knock it out of the park, but we can hope. The lack of communication is only creating more doubt.

Its not about money, its about talent, and management. You can't compare a legacy company with a very baked in product and people that have been existing in their ecosystem for 30 years to a disruptive start up company. Of course Microsoft is capable of producing a good OS. Microsoft choses not to build a good OS, because they simply don't have to. They build what they build because "thats what they've always built."


If you're looking for a car company to compare Microsoft to, its GM-not Rivian.
 

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That is fair. All Rivian needs to do, is demo something besides collapsible cookware, and we can take their word on the infotainment.

All I am saying is; bad communication & delays aside, something is going to not be right with Rivian. Tesla had teething pains, Ford has teething pains, Audi has teething pains. It is foolish of me to not assume Rivian is going to drop the ball on something. The lack of communication leads me wonder if it is more than one thing they are dropping the ball on.

It could be poor infotainment, EV fires, service centers backed up, build quality, stereo system, paint quality, bad public charging (identity and access management defects in plug-n-go EV), poor charging speeds, road noise - there are going to be issues.

I’d rather we start seeing Rivian come forward with some information here. We’re just days away from customers supposedly (won’t see me believing that statement. Anyone want to place any wagers?) receiving vehicles.

Is there anything we know, besides how the collapsible cookware works?

I love to rag on Rivian demoing off this collapsible cookware, but holding out on every other detail. It taunts me. Absolutely blows my mind that the Hummer EV was announced in like what? Fall 2020. Kids on YouTube have been touching, feeling, driving and showing off the vehicle since like....well, fall 2020.

I really want a R1S, but you know how fads seem to fade, right? I feel like I have been invested in this Rivian thing for so long, that the trend is kind of.....waning. And it is just turning in to frustration. Like the excitement has come, and it came....and other EV’s are just here to steal the show now. It royally sucks for Rivian, because they had a serious chance at being a standout EV brand (besides Tesla). By the time they make it to market, I fear they will be lost in the mix - like a random Android phone from a now defunct company. The EV market is rapidly becoming crowded, and there is only so much room for boutique John DeLorean brands. The fact that the most legacy automotive companies are beating Rivian to market just makes me sour, and the confidence in the brand just erodes everyday they can’t show me anything. Ultimately, this is going to be a $80,000 purchase for me. This is a highly coveted segment of the automotive market. This is luxury vehicle pricing. This is more than two times expensive the than any vehicle I have owned. I am deeply concerned about the lack of communication, the lack of visibility, and transparency. I want them to succeed.

Blows me freakin mind. Hummer EV going to beat R1S to market. Each Hummer EV customer is going to be a $75k loss to Rivian. Rivian is becoming a case study in how to not launch a (serious) brand.

I used to be a denier - I deflected Rivian criticism. I raved about the brand. But now I just keep wondering if 80k on a Rivian is just too big of a gamble. It is not lost on me that Trevor Milton just bailed himself out of jail with 100 million. I am tired of giving these brands a pass, and living in denial land, where I don’t look at things with a clear lens (and instead have my fanboy lens on)

Something is going to be wrong with my R1S, and the Rivian experience. We just don’t know what it is yet. Rivian won’t be transparent and have an honest discussion, so they are fine with giving us a cold shoulder. If RJ wants to end this speculation and actually increase his brands awareness in the market; he can lend Doug Demuro a R1T, he can lend Out of Spec motoring a R1S, he can give Rich Rebuilds a R1T for a weekend.

The anticipation has turned to frustration. And every brand is racing to market to snipe these 80k customers out from underneath Rivian. If Rivian waits long enough to let the Hummer EV + Cybertruck hit the market at the exact same time; nothing will stop me from returning my R1S and picking up a Hummer EV.

This is me totally going after RJ as a person right now; but RJ just has no track record. The more we don’t hear from Rivian - the more I worry RJ lives in a land of theory and books. Which is to say, we’ve never really seen RJ succeed, or hear much of how RJ has done anything that even in his professional life. Musk - for all his faults, was part of PayPal, a company so successful it would spinoff from eBay, shape the internet and eCommerce, create countless billionaires and success stories. This is to say - Musk lived in a world that required implementing and actually delivering something to the customers.

I worry about Amazon’s influence here, too. Amazon is a great example of a company (like Microsoft), with (massive) pockets of mediocrity. Amazon has too much influence in the company, and Rivian is just as focused on commercial vans as they are collapsible cookware and the vehicles for consumers. I don’t want Rivian to be another mediocre offering in the AWS marketplace, and this to turn in to a pet-project for Bezos. When we got a guy with no real implementation / boots on the ground experience - all theoretical classroom background.....yeah - I worry about Rivian.

/tangent over.

RJ - your move. You gotta show these vehicles to the public sometime, bud

Its not about money, its about talent, and management. You can't compare a legacy company with a very baked in product and people that have been existing in their ecosystem for 30 years to a disruptive start up company. Of course Microsoft is capable of producing a good OS. Microsoft choses not to build a good OS, because they simply don't have to. They build what they build because "thats what they've always built."


If you're looking for a car company to compare Microsoft to, its GM-not Rivian.
 

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That is fair. All Rivian needs to do, is demo something besides collapsible cookware, and we can take their word on the infotainment.

All I am saying is; bad communication & delays aside, something is going to not be right with Rivian. Tesla had teething pains, Ford has teething pains, Audi has teething pains. It is foolish of me to not assume Rivian is going to drop the ball on something. The lack of communication leads me wonder if it is more than one thing they are dropping the ball on.

It could be poor infotainment, EV fires, service centers backed up, build quality, stereo system, paint quality, bad public charging (identity and access management defects in plug-n-go EV), poor charging speeds, road noise - there are going to be issues.

I’d rather we start seeing Rivian come forward with some information here. We’re just days away from customers supposedly (won’t see me believing that statement. Anyone want to place any wagers?) receiving vehicles.

Is there anything we know, besides how the collapsible cookware works?

I love to rag on Rivian demoing off this collapsible cookware, but holding out on every other detail. It taunts me. Absolutely blows my mind that the Hummer EV was announced in like what? Fall 2020. Kids on YouTube have been touching, feeling, driving and showing off the vehicle since like....well, fall 2020.

I really want a R1S, but you know how fads seem to fade, right? I feel like I have been invested in this Rivian thing for so long, that the trend is kind of.....waning. And it is just turning in to frustration. Like the excitement has come, and it came....and other EV’s are just here to steal the show now. It royally sucks for Rivian, because they had a serious chance at being a standout EV brand (besides Tesla). By the time they make it to market, I fear they will be lost in the mix - like a random Android phone from a now defunct company. The EV market is rapidly becoming crowded, and there is only so much room for boutique John DeLorean brands. The fact that the most legacy automotive companies are beating Rivian to market just makes me sour, and the confidence in the brand just erodes everyday they can’t show me anything. Ultimately, this is going to be a $80,000 purchase for me. This is a highly coveted segment of the automotive market. This is luxury vehicle pricing. This is more than two times expensive the than any vehicle I have owned. I am deeply concerned about the lack of communication, the lack of visibility, and transparency. I want them to succeed.

Blows me freakin mind. Hummer EV going to beat R1S to market. Each Hummer EV customer is going to be a $75k loss to Rivian. Rivian is becoming a case study in how to not launch a (serious) brand.

I used to be a denier - I deflected Rivian criticism. I raved about the brand. But now I just keep wondering if 80k on a Rivian is just too big of a gamble. It is not lost on me that Trevor Milton just bailed himself out of jail with 100 million. I am tired of giving these brands a pass, and living in denial land, where I don’t look at things with a clear lens (and instead have my fanboy lens on)

Something is going to be wrong with my R1S, and the Rivian experience. We just don’t know what it is yet. Rivian won’t be transparent and have an honest discussion, so they are fine with giving us a cold shoulder. If RJ wants to end this speculation and actually increase his brands awareness in the market; he can lend Doug Demuro a R1T, he can lend Out of Spec motoring a R1S, he can give Rich Rebuilds a R1T for a weekend.

The anticipation has turned to frustration. And every brand is racing to market to snipe these 80k customers out from underneath Rivian. If Rivian waits long enough to let the Hummer EV + Cybertruck hit the market at the exact same time; nothing will stop me from returning my R1S and picking up a Hummer EV.

This is me totally going after RJ as a person right now; but RJ just has no track record. The more we don’t hear from Rivian - the more I worry RJ lives in a land of theory and books. Which is to say, we’ve never really seen RJ succeed, or hear much of how RJ has done anything that even in his professional life. Musk - for all his faults, was part of PayPal, a company so successful it would spinoff from eBay, shape the internet and eCommerce, create countless billionaires and success stories. This is to say - Musk lived in a world that required implementing and actually delivering something to the customers.

I worry about Amazon’s influence here, too. Amazon is a great example of a company (like Microsoft), with (massive) pockets of mediocrity. Amazon has too much influence in the company, and Rivian is just as focused on commercial vans as they are collapsible cookware and the vehicles for consumers. I don’t want Rivian to be another mediocre offering in the AWS marketplace, and this to turn in to a pet-project for Bezos. When we got a guy with no real implementation / boots on the ground experience - all theoretical classroom background.....yeah - I worry about Rivian.

/tangent over.

RJ - your move. You gotta show these vehicles to the public sometime, bud
As stated before:
Time for you to move on - Rivian is not a company you want to do business with. Their priorities are not anywhere near aligned with yours and that is unlikely to change. It is probable that you will never ever be happy with the experience of buying/owning a Rivian.
 

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That is fair. All Rivian needs to do, is demo something besides collapsible cookware, and we can take their word on the infotainment.

All I am saying is; bad communication & delays aside, something is going to not be right with Rivian. Tesla had teething pains, Ford has teething pains, Audi has teething pains. It is foolish of me to not assume Rivian is going to drop the ball on something. The lack of communication leads me wonder if it is more than one thing they are dropping the ball on.

It could be poor infotainment, EV fires, service centers backed up, build quality, stereo system, paint quality, bad public charging (identity and access management defects in plug-n-go EV), poor charging speeds, road noise - there are going to be issues.

I’d rather we start seeing Rivian come forward with some information here. We’re just days away from customers supposedly (won’t see me believing that statement. Anyone want to place any wagers?) receiving vehicles.

Is there anything we know, besides how the collapsible cookware works?

I love to rag on Rivian demoing off this collapsible cookware, but holding out on every other detail. It taunts me. Absolutely blows my mind that the Hummer EV was announced in like what? Fall 2020. Kids on YouTube have been touching, feeling, driving and showing off the vehicle since like....well, fall 2020.

I really want a R1S, but you know how fads seem to fade, right? I feel like I have been invested in this Rivian thing for so long, that the trend is kind of.....waning. And it is just turning in to frustration. Like the excitement has come, and it came....and other EV’s are just here to steal the show now. It royally sucks for Rivian, because they had a serious chance at being a standout EV brand (besides Tesla). By the time they make it to market, I fear they will be lost in the mix - like a random Android phone from a now defunct company. The EV market is rapidly becoming crowded, and there is only so much room for boutique John DeLorean brands. The fact that the most legacy automotive companies are beating Rivian to market just makes me sour, and the confidence in the brand just erodes everyday they can’t show me anything. Ultimately, this is going to be a $80,000 purchase for me. This is a highly coveted segment of the automotive market. This is luxury vehicle pricing. This is more than two times expensive the than any vehicle I have owned. I am deeply concerned about the lack of communication, the lack of visibility, and transparency. I want them to succeed.

Blows me freakin mind. Hummer EV going to beat R1S to market. Each Hummer EV customer is going to be a $75k loss to Rivian. Rivian is becoming a case study in how to not launch a (serious) brand.

I used to be a denier - I deflected Rivian criticism. I raved about the brand. But now I just keep wondering if 80k on a Rivian is just too big of a gamble. It is not lost on me that Trevor Milton just bailed himself out of jail with 100 million. I am tired of giving these brands a pass, and living in denial land, where I don’t look at things with a clear lens (and instead have my fanboy lens on)

Something is going to be wrong with my R1S, and the Rivian experience. We just don’t know what it is yet. Rivian won’t be transparent and have an honest discussion, so they are fine with giving us a cold shoulder. If RJ wants to end this speculation and actually increase his brands awareness in the market; he can lend Doug Demuro a R1T, he can lend Out of Spec motoring a R1S, he can give Rich Rebuilds a R1T for a weekend.

The anticipation has turned to frustration. And every brand is racing to market to snipe these 80k customers out from underneath Rivian. If Rivian waits long enough to let the Hummer EV + Cybertruck hit the market at the exact same time; nothing will stop me from returning my R1S and picking up a Hummer EV.

This is me totally going after RJ as a person right now; but RJ just has no track record. The more we don’t hear from Rivian - the more I worry RJ lives in a land of theory and books. Which is to say, we’ve never really seen RJ succeed, or hear much of how RJ has done anything that even in his professional life. Musk - for all his faults, was part of PayPal, a company so successful it would spinoff from eBay, shape the internet and eCommerce, create countless billionaires and success stories. This is to say - Musk lived in a world that required implementing and actually delivering something to the customers.

I worry about Amazon’s influence here, too. Amazon is a great example of a company (like Microsoft), with (massive) pockets of mediocrity. Amazon has too much influence in the company, and Rivian is just as focused on commercial vans as they are collapsible cookware and the vehicles for consumers. I don’t want Rivian to be another mediocre offering in the AWS marketplace, and this to turn in to a pet-project for Bezos. When we got a guy with no real implementation / boots on the ground experience - all theoretical classroom background.....yeah - I worry about Rivian.

/tangent over.

RJ - your move. You gotta show these vehicles to the public sometime, bud
Wowzers. Why’d rivian buy that big ex-Mitsubishi factory, when they live rent-free in your head?
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