Dont mess with the PWS on your EV.

[rhuber]

On a total tangent here, but as someone who rides motorcycles (though less and less because distracted drivers terrify me), I have completely avoided electric motorcycles because they don’t make noise. In places where lane splitting is legal, hearing a motorcycle is sometimes the first indication a motorist notices when a bike is approaching.

Sponsored

 

[rhuber]

And tangent2: as a bicyclist, basically every driver these days scares me.

 

[bhopkins]

Sounds like a legislative fix is needed in order to update the rules to cover today's situation (EV off-roading in natural areas). But, given how long it has taken the US to adopt changes in headlights compared to other countries, the rules aren't going to change s--0--0--n.

 

[SANZC02]

On a total tangent here, but as someone who rides motorcycles (though less and less because distracted drivers terrify me), I have completely avoided electric motorcycles because they don’t make noise. In places where lane splitting is legal, hearing a motorcycle is sometimes the first indication a motorist notices when a bike is approaching.

In my experience on a motorcycle and a bicycle I find there is nothing you can do to make sure you are seen. I’ve found the only way to survive is to ride as if you were invisible and no one can see you.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

Practically speaking, wouldn't that solve the issue? We already geofence drones. The R1T would be capable of geofencing and that would alleviate the need for PWS in a situation that clearly doesn't demand it and negates some of the benefit of having an electric vehicle in nature - preserving and enjoying the ambient sounds that otherwise would be droned out by an ICE or a functionally limited PWS (in that environment).

Think about how often navigation maps are wrong. Google is often cited as having the best/most-accurate map data, and yet there’s still ton’s of issues. Entire streets/neighborhoods are missing from the map. Areas that were built years ago still don’t show up. An intersection near my house was changed ~5 years ago from a 3-way to a divided road where you physically can’t turn left (you must turn right, then there’s a dedicated u-turn lane a few hundred feet down the road). However, Google will still tell you to turn left.

You can’t effectively geo-fence safety features because the map data isn’t good enough to trust. It’s fine for navigational assistance but it isn’t good enough for reliance of self-driving or safety-critical features.

Same reason that geo-fencing “tank turn” is futile. People will still be able to do it where they shouldn’t, and they’ll be prevented from doing it where it would be safe.

Bringing this back to PWS, as much as the sound may be annoying, at times, it’s important we have it. And since we can’t reliably define all the parameters to avoid tragic edge cases, the right solution is to just have the sound any time the vehicle is in a mode where it can immediately begin moving, until it’s traveling at a speed where normal “road noise” can be guaranteed to be made.

 

[SoCal Rob]

On a total tangent here, but as someone who rides motorcycles (though less and less because distracted drivers terrify me), I have completely avoided electric motorcycles because they don’t make noise. In places where lane splitting is legal, hearing a motorcycle is sometimes the first indication a motorist notices when a bike is approaching.

My interpretation is that you want your vehicle (Rivian) to make less noise when that noise safeguards others and you want your vehicle (motorcycle) to make more noise when that noise safeguards you.

Is that a fair summary?

 

[iansriv]

I know there are countless adults with perfect vision walking around as if everyone else should value their safety more that they do and I understand your frustration with them. I also find the artificial noises to be annoying, especially while in a natural setting far from other people.

However, there are a lot of people out there with vision problems which cause them to rely on sound to at least augment their ability to detect threats in addition to the folks who are legally blind and who will rely entirely on sound. Plus, kids can get pretty engrossed in whatever captures their imagination not noticing anything going on around them and they are not as easily seen by drivers. We need to consider all of these folks, too.

I can’t speak for anyone else but I’d be devastated if I injured or killed someone because I disabled a safety feature which could have saved their life. I cannot imagine the guilt I’d feel for the rest of my life over having prioritized eliminating a noise which which I found annoying over the welfare of someone else.

It's for 99% of the population engrossed by their smart phone.

 

[Max]

The process needs to be smart and effective otherwise people that are annoyed by it will put a switch on it's path or disable it completely. Smarter people than me just need to give it some thought. Here are a few half baked ideas:

If the vehicle is equipped with Automatic emergency braking (AEB), noise maker can be disabled. When disabled, gear guard does double duty to act as lifeguard looking for humans and dogs.

When noise maker is on, noise level would be louder when windows are up.

Noise could be targeted (a speaker facing forward and one facing back with 120 degrees of coverage) so it is annoying mainly to the "target" audience not the driver. Front speaker could be louder moving forward and the rear speaker louder in reverse.

Meridian sound system is programmed to cancel the noise inside the cabin.

Hopefully these ideas won't sound too stupid tomorrow.

 

[Riviot]

On a total tangent here, but as someone who rides motorcycles (though less and less because distracted drivers terrify me), I have completely avoided electric motorcycles because they don’t make noise. In places where lane splitting is legal, hearing a motorcycle is sometimes the first indication a motorist notices when a bike is approaching.

One of the downsides to having a CVT on my Aprilia is I can't rev it when people act a fool.

In my experience on a motorcycle and a bicycle I find there is nothing you can do to make sure you are seen. I’ve found the only way to survive is to ride as if you were invisible and no one can see you.

With my bar-end mirror, I've also invested in stupid bright lights all over and one of the new blinky helmets...

 

[rhuber]

My interpretation is that you want your vehicle (Rivian) to make less noise when that noise safeguards others and you want your vehicle (motorcycle) to make more noise when that noise safeguards you.

Is that a fair summary?

It is a bit of a false equivalency, but sure. Motorcycles operate in places where cars just aren’t looking for vulnerable road users at all. “I didn’t see you” is the common refrain.

The limited amount of sound through the tape is still a higher dB than my Tesla generates.

All of that said, I’ve removed the tape. This should be implemented more smartly in software than the current system.

 

[rhuber]

Btw the issue I was solving for here is that it is so loud it wakes up the neighbor who lives directly above my garage space, and I was trying to make that less of an issue.

In the end you’re right and I should be more concerned with people who depend on audio queues to know their surroundings. I am sorry, despite the title of this regrettable thread.

 

[SoCal Rob]

It's for 99% of the population engrossed by their smart phone.

As I said In an earlier post I understand the frustration. It doesn’t change the fact that there are plenty of people who rely on sound because they need to.

When I was 22 I was driving to work one rainy fall morning. I worked for a school district in their administration office. I was driving a Dodge Daytona in a very bright metallic electric blue (close to Rivian Blue) with headlights on because it was raining. As I was pulling into the driveway of the administration building, there was a school bus parked against the right curb in a no parking zone. My car had a stick shift and I was in 1st gear doing something under 10 miles an hour. Just as the front of my car got to the front of the parked bus, someone ran out from in front of the bus, saw my bright blue car with headlights on, and tried to stop, but he slipped on the wet pavement and/or leaves and fell with a loud WHACK! against the side of the car.

I had already come to a stop, but when I got out of my car to see this older guy on the ground against my car I froze for a second as my brain processed the what-ifs. People boiled out of the building and it was quickly discovered that the bus driver seemed okay and it was just his shin hitting the passenger door of my car which made the loud noise. The paramedics and police came. One of the older secretaries came out, asked me if I was okay and I just lost it, crying. What if I’d killed this guy?!?!

He ended up being fine and everyone told me it wasn’t my fault. He shouldn’t have been parked there at all. He shouldn’t have been running out from behind his bus. I was driving safely: slowly and with headlights on. None of that mattered to me. If I’d hurt or killed him I would’ve always felt responsible and I don’t want to experience that feeling ever again.

I guess people can see two sides of this story. Some would say that all the safety devices in the world can’t save stupid people who are not paying attention. Others would say that the reality of causing harm to someone, even a complete stranger, is too great a burden to risk altering mandating safety equipment. These two things don’t have to be mutually exclusive so I’d always go with leaving the safety equipment in place to give me the clearest conscience.

 

[Monkey]

My problem with the PWS on EV's and hybrids is that it started as legislation brought on mostly by the anti-EV crowd. It was initially, and still continues to be, a means of obstruction and more red tape to getting more EVs to market.

It's completely ridiculous that the NHTSA doesn't target *ALL* vehicles with these requirements. Many newer ICE vehicles are just as quiet as EVs, especially when trolling parking lots or rolling through residential streets. Audible noises are not the only factors for noticing vehicles. Some pedestrians just don't pay attention. Many have their faces glued to their phones and/or have earbuds blocking out everything around them. I've had more people step out in front of my diesel F-250 than any other vehicle I currently own. And it's always been that way... Pedestrians and people in small cars just love to move in front of a truck.

The NHTSA data on all this is fine, but incomplete. They're not acknowledging the vast majority of pedestrians hit by vehicles in low speed situations still occur with ICE cars. Both in number and in scaled percentages as most EVs already have enhanced safety features. It has been questioned in NHTSA proceedings why the warning systems are not being targeted at all vehicles even though most newer cars operate quietly. Tesla and a few others have pointed out several ICE cars that operate below the NTHSA's own determined decibel threshold for needing the warning system. And yet, they continue to only push it for hybrid/EV vehicles.

I'm glad my 2020 Model Y does not have the PWS...

I wish that it could be disabled in the Rivian for off-road use. I find it interesting that in several reviews and demo drives there is no PWS system engaged and all the talk about how quiet the truck is. Well, that's not really the case.

 

[SASSquatch]

Think about how often navigation maps are wrong. Google is often cited as having the best/most-accurate map data, and yet there’s still ton’s of issues. Entire streets/neighborhoods are missing from the map. Areas that were built years ago still don’t show up. An intersection near my house was changed ~5 years ago from a 3-way to a divided road where you physically can’t turn left (you must turn right, then there’s a dedicated u-turn lane a few hundred feet down the road). However, Google will still tell you to turn left.

You can’t effectively geo-fence safety features because the map data isn’t good enough to trust. It’s fine for navigational assistance but it isn’t good enough for reliance of self-driving or safety-critical features.

Same reason that geo-fencing “tank turn” is futile. People will still be able to do it where they shouldn’t, and they’ll be prevented from doing it where it would be safe.

Bringing this back to PWS, as much as the sound may be annoying, at times, it’s important we have it. And since we can’t reliably define all the parameters to avoid tragic edge cases, the right solution is to just have the sound any time the vehicle is in a mode where it can immediately begin moving, until it’s traveling at a speed where normal “road noise” can be guaranteed to be made.

No qualms that map data isn't always accurate. However, given that we are talking about areas that are specifically off-road, and preserved as such, I think they would make good candidates for being fairly accurately labeled as such.

I don't think the lack of complete accuracy would necessarily rule out a geofence approach. The FAA requires geofencing for the operation of commercial drones so there is precedent for a government body using that approach, bad maps and all.

All that said, the need for PWS outweighs the benefits of having access to a PWS-less vehicle for the sake of enjoying the outdoors in relative silence. At worst, the PWS doesn't make any more noise than an ICE vehicle would in the same environment.

 

[E.S.]

... When was the last time you saw an incompetent driver?

Obviously, you've never driven in Miami

All jest aside, we still see problems with drivers and motorcycle related accidents. Albeit, the occasions are less, but sensory challenged individuals need all the aid they can get as they won't have someone to pull them back from traffic if they can't hear or see it.

... but you can't legislate common sense

I keep jokingly saying Common Sense 101 should be a mandatory required college course, 'cause Common Sense isn't common. I'm starting to believe it really needs to be a required course, hehe

Sponsored