Do I really need the Max Pack?

[ajdelange]

One huge negative right now is that Electrify America is not providing a consistent enough charging experience to quickly charge that massive battery to take advantage of the extended range that comes with the max battery pack.

We don't know much about Rivians BMS at this point but I'd guess that they want to charge on average at about 1.1C which means 148 kW for the 135 kWh pack and 198 kWh for the 180 kWh pack.

As I said in an earlier post 100 miles needs about 50 kWh in either truck so if you need 100 miles you'll have to take on that 50 kWh and if the charger is limited to 50 kW (lots of these 50 kW CHAdeMO/CCS stations out there) it's going to take an hour for either truck. Thus even in this worst case there is no disadvantage associated with the bigger battery. Now if the chargers are higher capacity working as they should be the Max would take on the charge needed for 100 mi in 135/180th of the time it would take the Large as the charge rate is 1.1C in either case.

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[Laurent]

But, seriously, what's your point? When you offered up this unsolicited opinion, what was the thought process on the benefit? I'm genuinely asking because I see posts like this all the time and can't figure out why they get written.

ads75's post may have been a bit blunt but I feel your reaction to it is overblown. It's an online forum after all, people post their unsolicited opinions. I actually agree with his point. I wasn't concerned about resale at all when I ordered my Tesla with a custom color back in 2012. In general, my advice is to buy the car you want and not worry about resale. You don't have to take it.

 

[Denver_Paulie]

We don't know much about Rivians BMS at this point but I'd guess that they want to charge on average at about 1.1C which means 148 kW for the 135 kWh pack and 198 kWh for the 180 kWh pack.

As I said in an earlier post 100 miles needs about 50 kWh in either truck so if you need 100 miles you'll have to take on that 50 kWh and if the charger is limited to 50 kW (lots of these 50 kW CHAdeMO/CCS stations out there) it's going to take an hour for either truck. Thus even in this worst case there is no disadvantage associated with the bigger battery. Now if the chargers are higher capacity working as they should be the Max would take on the charge needed for 100 mi in 135/180th of the time it would take the Large as the charge rate is 1.1C in either case.

Everything you have shared makes sense in a "perfect world" scenario. When you factor in weather, broken chargers, or slow chargers, that equation changes and that is what people need to understand.

It does not matter to Electrify America what size of battery you have. If they keep up with their current service level inconsistency it will affect ability to road trip in the US.

90% of people will not need a max battery. If you feel you need one, then by means order it and do what makes you feel happy. However, remember, the max battery size will not impact your trip of 250 or 300 miles and above, the charging rate and Mother Nature will determine when you continue your trip will and how fast you arrive.

I would caution everyone to understand that when traveling long distances in a Rivian, Electrify America reliability and Mother Nature are the two most important factors.

I am not taking sides on either size of battery. People need to understand all of the dynamics involved in EV ownership. Real world is very different than perfect world, that is all I am saying.

 

[BigE]

I talked to the “battery expert” (and I don’t use quotations because I’m being an ass) who was fairly knowledgeable. He says the max pack version will have the same payload as large pack R1T with no mechanical differences in frame or suspension. Also said both packs are 400V and didn’t know for sure, but felt max pack production isn’t far off

That will be wonderful if true on the payload. I’ve spoken with Rivian recently. All I got was, we are still on track to start delivering R1T Max packs in January and still no information on weight or payload. I passed on the LE to get a Max Pack and have been told several times now, that Max Pack holders will start shipping along side of LE builds. On payload, so I would think the Max Pack will have a separate GVWR than the Large Pack? The R1T sounds like it is very “overbuilt” from comments that RJ has made.

 

[ads75]

I never understand the point of posts like this. @moosehead made a very reasonable point: Not having a max pack could affect resale. If that's not something you'd consider, bully for you. But it might be something that OP or another reader had not considered.

Or maybe they had considered it, and decided it didn't figure into their calculus on which pack to buy. Either way they didn't feel the need to post a message that didn't advance the conversation (sorta like this one).

But, seriously, what's your point? When you offered up this unsolicited opinion, what was the thought process on the benefit? I'm genuinely asking because I see posts like this all the time and can't figure out why they get written.

If someone buys the Max Pack, obviously they will have a higher resale value. Just like other cars, more options generally mean higher resale. But that doesn't mean lower trims don't sell or re-sell. Just tired of reading about people justifying the reason for max pack is because of resale, on something that tends to depreciate anyways. A Large pack won't be worthless or shot. My point is, I am buying for my purposes, not resale. But maybe my budget is different or I have a different use case than the people who are Max Pack or bust. This isn't a permanent asset. Expensive, yes. But if I regret Large pack I can trade in and upgrade.

 

[ajdelange]

Everything you have shared makes sense in a "perfect world" scenario. When you factor in weather, broken chargers, or slow chargers, that equation changes and that is what people need to understand.

If you will think about it a bit it makes perfect sense in the real world of lousy weather changing the consumption from 500 Wh/mi to 600 (so that you need 60 kWh instead of 50 for 100 mi), slow (e.g. the CircuitElectrique 50 kW units) or broken (EA charger that only delivers 70 kW). That's what you need to understand. In the worst case there is no penalty for having the larger battery. Work some numbers. In the best case, where the charge rate in miles added per unit time is greater because Cmax > Clarge, there is a penalty to having the smaller pack in terms of time spent charging per mile traveled.

It does not matter to Electrify America what size of battery you have. If they keep up with their current service level inconsistency it will affect ability to road trip in the US.

Well that's unarguable until and if Tesla opens the SC network but it is irrelevant to debunking the max pack penalty argument. If they do not improve performance the max pack advantage will not be realized, true enough.

90% of people will not need a max battery.

Everyone needs it. It is just that not everyone has thought it through enough or has the relevant experience (actually operating a BEV) to understand that. If you can convince yourself you don't need it, then by all means don't order it and do what makes you feel happy. At least you will get your truck sooner!

However, remember, the max battery size will not impact your trip of 250 or 300 miles and above,

My experience has been just the opposite. Going from a 300 mile car to a 350 mile car has made a difference in the up to 600 mile road trips we take. We are no longer quite so nervous about charging as we used to be (except in the academic sense as I follow this stuff on every trip). I think when you get a little time behind the wheel of a BEV you will probably come to the same conclusion.

..the charging rate and Mother Nature will determine when you continue your trip will and how fast you arrive.

True enough and if you have 33% more range on board you will find that grants appreciable additional flexibility and therefore more comfort with the BEV experience. Or perhaps you won't.

Real world is very different than perfect world, that is all I am saying.

Actually it isn't at all. It's just a different set of numbers going into the same model. Your most important job when you get your truck is to determine which set of numbers go with which set of conditions. If you do that you should have no trouble at all though you may experience some anxiety until you get up to speed.

 

[timesinks]

Everyone needs it. It is just that not everyone has thought it through enough or has the relevant experience (actually operating a BEV) to understand that. If you can convince yourself you don't need it, then by all means don't order it and do what makes you feel happy. At least you will get your truck sooner!

I'm going to pick on your phrasing here: "need" is a very strong word implying no viable alternative. Almost everyone could benefit from the max pack. Many people would be more comfortable with it. Almost nobody needs it.

$10,000 is a lot of money to spend for something that will save most people 10-20 minutes 1-3 times per year.

 

[ajdelange]

OK. In fact, of course, I don't "need" the truck. But I fancy I do!

And if I haven't already put the pilot's analog in this thread here it is again: It's's like extra runway. Most of the time you don't need it but when you do, you do.

 

[hola29]

Not getting involved in the max pack discussion, but nearly 99% of my driving on a per trip basis is 120 miles or less. If I add at 45 min lunch + charging, the range is now close to where I would prefer to fly. I guess we'll see, but I can't imagine cancelling a trip across town if you have a charger at home...

OK, coming from a tesla owner who is well aware of the limitations of going electric, I am of the opinion that Range is King. Ever have to cancel a trip across town because you don't have enough juice to get there and back. I can tell you every day requires planning with an EV at the moment. DC fast chargers are few and far between. There have been many times when I had to switch to my gas vehicle because I wanted to go somewhere that I didn't plan on and didn't have enough charge to get there. Happens all the time.

As for driving habits and range. Real world range is a tossup. My tesla is supposed to get 316 miles per charge but in reality driving like a normal human being I get about 280. If I do a lot of interstate driving its more like 255. You see EV's don't like speed. above 60mph air resistance eats your battery alive. No one here drives even 70 on the interstate. Ford on the other hand has taken a different approach. It seems they have opted to under estimate their mileage ratings. I have a friend with a Mach-E and despite his driving habits the actual range seems to more closely adhere to what is being displayed.

It seems that Rivian is going the tesla route so I would be careful about range especially if this will be your only vehicle. I tell everyone interested in getting into an EV to go for the maximum range available and you will have an overall better experience. Once we have Ultra fast chargers on every street corner this will be a none issue but coming from experience, at the moment Range is huge in the functionality of the vehicle.

if you can wait and afford it GO WITH THE MAX PACK!!!!!

 

[Dbeglor]

Everyone needs it. It is just that not everyone has thought it through enough or has the relevant experience (actually operating a BEV) to understand that. If you can convince yourself you don't need it, then by all means don't order it and do what makes you feel happy. At least you will get your truck sooner!

This is such ignorant, smug and condescending BS. It's so outrageous that one must wonder what agenda is behind it, because surely someone can't really be that ridiculously convinced in their own beliefs.

The Large pack represents a 50% increase in range from what I have had historically, and I've never once needed more. I can count on one hand how many times I've even needed DCFC charging, and a larger battery would not have had a meaningful impact on my needs.

However, I'd never tell anyone unequivocally that they don't need more range, because everyone's needs are different. If I lived where it got cold, or had routine destinations that lacked infrastructure or distance that required more range, then my answer would be different. If I rented and didn't have access to home level 2 charging, perhaps my answer would be different.

Personally, if I needed/wanted to drive more than a few hours, I'd rather just rent an ICE vehicle for that trip. $10k pays for a hell of a lot of rental days and I don't add mileage to my vehicle.

If you are unsure, just do your own research and get the facts specific to your own circumstances. Asking people online is akin to asking you should invest your money. Any credible answer to that question should start with "Well, it depends....."

 

[ajdelange]

This is such ignorant, smug and condescending BS. It's so outrageous that one must wonder what agenda is behind it,

I now own 180 shares of the company,

..because surely someone can't really be that ridiculously convinced in their own beliefs.

Not a belief. A statement of fact. But as I said originally not everyone is perceptive enough to grasp it. People who actually drive BEV tend to get it more than internet "experts"

The Large pack represents a 50% increase in range from what I have had historically, and I've never once needed more. I can count on one hand how many times I've even needed DCFC charging,

This is such ignorant, smug and condescending BS. It's so outrageous that one must wonder what agenda is behind it.

 

[timesinks]

Not a belief. A statement of fact. But as I said originally not everyone is perceptive enough to grasp it. People who actually drive BEV tend to get it more than internet "experts"

If it were a fact that the max pack was needed, Rivian would not produce a trim with a smaller pack. You are doubling down on your misuse of the word "need".

 

[ajdelange]

If it were a fact that the max pack was needed, Rivian would not produce a trim with a smaller pack. You are doubling down on your misuse of the word "need".

You need it but Rivian can't supply it so they give you what they can. - and you accept it. Do we really need this level of silliness?

 

[hola29]

This is a funny discussion...I am price insensitive....$10k is not material to me, so I guess I could get the max pack, but as a data point for the discussion, I don't want it...Not sure why, but I could afford the Lucid @ $125K too...

It might be a learning to live within my means exercise...and then have fun with some problems along the way. I can't wait to never visit a gas station again...

If it were a fact that the max pack was needed, Rivian would not produce a trim with a smaller pack. You are doubling down on your misuse of the word "need".

 

[timesinks]

You need it but Rivian can't supply it so they give you what they can. - and you accept it. Do we really need this level of silliness?

Does your airplane need a bigger fuel tank? Or do you plan your trips according to the fuel you have? Sure, you don't "need" more fuel until you need more fuel, but you have plenty of perfectly viable alternatives to prevent yourself from getting into that situation.

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