Do I really need the Max Pack?

[Bigeasy70075]

Don't go by what you see there to determine your range.

That truck has been driven like a stolen rental truck all day long. It's Watts per Mile are going to be waaaaay off of your (most likely) day to day use.

....I mean unless you are doing donuts, ripping up hills, and seeing how quick you can accelerate every time you touch the accelerator peddle.

EPA on "Large Pack" with 21" road rims and tires is 314. Knock off 10% for AT tires puts you around 283 with "normal driving".

So... unless you drive like an ass, only drive uphill, or are dragging anchors or a trailer behind you, you should not be seeing 228...

OK, coming from a tesla owner who is well aware of the limitations of going electric, I am of the opinion that Range is King. Ever have to cancel a trip across town because you don't have enough juice to get there and back. I can tell you every day requires planning with an EV at the moment. DC fast chargers are few and far between. There have been many times when I had to switch to my gas vehicle because I wanted to go somewhere that I didn't plan on and didn't have enough charge to get there. Happens all the time.

As for driving habits and range. Real world range is a tossup. My tesla is supposed to get 316 miles per charge but in reality driving like a normal human being I get about 280. If I do a lot of interstate driving its more like 255. You see EV's don't like speed. above 60mph air resistance eats your battery alive. No one here drives even 70 on the interstate. Ford on the other hand has taken a different approach. It seems they have opted to under estimate their mileage ratings. I have a friend with a Mach-E and despite his driving habits the actual range seems to more closely adhere to what is being displayed.

It seems that Rivian is going the tesla route so I would be careful about range especially if this will be your only vehicle. I tell everyone interested in getting into an EV to go for the maximum range available and you will have an overall better experience. Once we have Ultra fast chargers on every street corner this will be a none issue but coming from experience, at the moment Range is huge in the functionality of the vehicle.

if you can wait and afford it GO WITH THE MAX PACK!!!!!

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[gd_r1t]

I'm a Tesla owner and I can appreciate your points. I'm quite torn on the Max pack, to be honest.

On the one hand, for adventures specifically, I do think having maximum trip range will be helpful to get to remote areas off the beaten path. I'd be a little nervous about the Large pack with AT's, maybe eeking out 200 miles on highway to/from destinations.

On the other hand, the sheer mechanics of it pretty heavily dilute the incremental range of the Max pack over Large, especially with AT's. Let's say there's a +100 mile difference in EPA estimates. Since AT's lose 10-15%, the true delta is only 85-90 miles. With highway driving, that's maybe 80 miles. Then add in cold weather, gear, tent or bikes on the roof rack, etc... All in, I would expect a Max pack yields maybe an extra hour of highway driving time at 70-75 mph. Legit, but not necessarily game changing to open up new destinations I could safely reach without having to recharge.

Then, the crazy big battery sizes further reduce the incremental benefit, for longer trips that definitely require recharging. By that, I mean you'd have to wait longer to recharge the extra 45 kWh in the Max pack anyway, especially since that's going to be on the upper half of the battery's charge curve. So you really only save significant time during the very first leg, since you can charge the battery to full at home before heading out (recognize I'm wording this whole thing somewhat poorly).

Then, there's the $10k and likely waiting longer to take delivery, payload impact, storage, etc...

For me, I would be fine with spending the extra $10k and waiting longer for Max pack if worthwhile. But I keep going on the fence about it given all these factors. Knowing myself, I'll probably go ahead and do it, despite my above points ?

 

[ajdelange]

On the other hand, the sheer mechanics of it pretty heavily dilute the incremental range of the Max pack over Large, especially with AT's. Let's say there's a +100 mile difference in EPA estimates. Since AT's lose 10-15%, the true delta is only 85-90 miles. With highway driving, that's maybe 80 miles. Then add in cold weather, gear, tent or bikes on the roof rack, etc...

Whatever the circumstances the 400 mile pack gives you 33% more than the 300 mile pack as the Wh/mi are nearly identical in the two.

Then, the crazy big battery sizes further reduce the incremental benefit, for longer trips that definitely require recharging. By that, I mean you'd have to wait longer to recharge the extra 45 kWh in the Max pack anyway,

Doesn't work that way. If I'm going on a 600 mile trip I need to load 600 mi plus some arrival margin into the battery in either case with the loading apportioned over a couple of convenient stops. Six hundred miles of juice is the same in either configuration as the Wh/mi are the same. Thus, ceteris paribus, it would take slightly less time to charge the larger pack than the smaller because you will be lower in the SoC range for all the charges. This will only practically speaking save a few minutes though.

Then, there's the $10k and likely waiting longer to take delivery...

The latter is the only real downside. The IPO has covered the $10K.

 

[TessP100D]

And wait another year

That might be true.

 

[moosehead]

Even if you don't utilize Max Pack range for yourself, say as a short mileage daily driver, when you go to sell the vehicle, the buyer will want Max Pack.

Note your future sale date will undoubtedly be a time with upgraded range, charging voltage, and other advancements in EV. There will also be more alternative EV supply availability.

 

[TessP100D]

OK, coming from a tesla owner who is well aware of the limitations of going electric, I am of the opinion that Range is King. Ever have to cancel a trip across town because you don't have enough juice to get there and back. I can tell you every day requires planning with an EV at the moment. DC fast chargers are few and far between. There have been many times when I had to switch to my gas vehicle because I wanted to go somewhere that I didn't plan on and didn't have enough charge to get there. Happens all the time.

As for driving habits and range. Real world range is a tossup. My tesla is supposed to get 316 miles per charge but in reality driving like a normal human being I get about 280. If I do a lot of interstate driving its more like 255. You see EV's don't like speed. above 60mph air resistance eats your battery alive. No one here drives even 70 on the interstate. Ford on the other hand has taken a different approach. It seems they have opted to under estimate their mileage ratings. I have a friend with a Mach-E and despite his driving habits the actual range seems to more closely adhere to what is being displayed.

It seems that Rivian is going the tesla route so I would be careful about range especially if this will be your only vehicle. I tell everyone interested in getting into an EV to go for the maximum range available and you will have an overall better experience. Once we have Ultra fast chargers on every street corner this will be a none issue but coming from experience, at the moment Range is huge in the functionality of the vehicle.

if you can wait and afford it GO WITH THE MAX PACK!!!!!

Thank you!!!

 

[Mister Person]

Noob question here but how much does the curb weight need to be considered when driving on dirt/gravel roads or going over small bridges over creeks, etc> Light off-roading, basically. The R1S will already be 2 ½ tons. Max pack even more. Is this going to be something that I routinely have to worry about? Is the weight a max pack consideration?

 

[gd_r1t]

Long response

Of course, there is a +33% relative delta. My point is that the absolute difference in range diminishes with every factor that reduces range/efficiency for the vehicle overall: AT's configuration, cold weather, weight of load, highway driving speed, etc... It just means that the +33% delta is not actually 100 miles on road trips, but maybe 70 miles, maybe. In your example, a 600 mile road trip maybe goes from 3 recharges to 2? My overall point again is that the Max pack is legit, but it shouldn't be viewed as game changing as far as unlocking new destinations that wouldn't otherwise require a recharge.

 

[ajdelange]

Noob question here but how much does the curb weight need to be considered when driving on dirt/gravel roads or going over small bridges over creeks, etc> Light off-roading, basically. The R1S will already be 2 ½ tons. Max pack even more. Is this going to be something that I routinely have to worry about? Is the weight a max pack consideration?

On the highway rolling resistance coefficient is around 0.01 and the rolling resistance load might be 100 Wh/mi out of a total consumption of 500 Wh/mi. Increasing the weight by 1% will thus increase this load to 101 Wh/mi increasing the total load by only 0.2 %. Off road the coefficient can increase by an order of magnitude or more thus increasing the rolling load to ca. 1000 Wh/mi and the total load to 1400 Wh/mi. (your range plummets if driving on sand). Under these circumstances a 1% increase in weight increases the rolling resistance to 1010 and the total to 1410 and this represents an increase of 0.7%. That's more than when on the bitumen but still not much. It is the weight of the vehicle that eats your lunch when off road.

 

[ajdelange]

My overall point again is that the Max pack is legit, but it shouldn't be viewed as game changing as far as unlocking new destinations that wouldn't otherwise require a recharge.

But it is. This depends, of course, on the perspective of the buyer. I leapt on the R1T the instant I saw 400 miles and this was based on driving a 300 mile Tesla for a while. Wow! 33% more range! Now, of course, that 500 mile cars are available and promised even 400 miles doesn't seem that spectacular but I would never willingly go back to 300 (now driving a 350 mi Tesla).

 

[Temerarius]

You should also consider the charging curve.

On a larger battery pack, hitting that 80% marker where you typically see a noticeable drop off, will be at a much higher kW/Range level than on a smaller battery pack... as such, you would hit 300 miles of range in the 400 mile pack quicker than you would hit 300 miles of range in the 300 mile pack.

 

[Denver_Paulie]

Everyone will have their unique perspective on why they think they need the max battery pack, but give me charging speed over max battery pack anyway of the week. I will not be hauling thing other than bikes, will not be towing anything, and will not be going deep into the back country 200 miles from the closest charger. I do not anticipate getting my R1T until 2023 based on what information is publicly available, so still not sure if I am going to do the Taycan Cross Turismo or wait for the Rivian to be built.

What appeals to me about the max battery pack is being able to potentially skip charging stops if I want. 99% of this board has never used an Electrify America charger, so not a lot of people understand the true challenge that comes with the inconsistency in the network. Every new car rolling out in the near future has some type of charging arrangement with Electrify America, so if the network is still suffering growing pains now it will only get worse in the next couple of years. Hopefully, Electrify America starts to get their reliability to improve before large scale Rivian production begins. Honestly, I don't see that happening until the 2nd half of '22, so EA has time.

That all being said, max battery pack when an Electrify America location is working as designed will be awesome, but an EA location that is slow and only charging 60kW max will be a very frustrating charging experience when trying to get to 50% or 75% battery charge in that big battery. The Rivian fast charging network will not start to have an impact until 2024 or 2025 at the earliest, so long range driving will be dependent on Electrify America.

The max battery when not towing or disappearing into the back country for a week sounds intriguing, but remember that you have to charge that beast, and that is not something in your control. I am lucky that I have one of the fastest charging EVs on the market today and can get anywhere I want to drive faster than any other EV if Electrify America chargers on my route are working as designed. Unfortunately, that is not always the case.

I miss taking scenic drives in Colorado on mountain passes that require an off road vehicle, so I hope Rivian ramps up a lot sooner than anticipated because there is nothing like driving through the American West.

Cheers

 

[Denver_Paulie]

You should also consider the charging curve.

On a larger battery pack, hitting that 80% marker where you typically see a noticeable drop off, will be at a much higher kW/Range level than on a smaller battery pack... as such, you would hit 300 miles of range in the 400 mile pack quicker than you would hit 300 miles of range in the 300 mile pack.

Theoretically, you are correct. But, that is IF the high speed charger is working as designed. With Electrify America that may be 50% of the time.

There are pluses and minus' to the max battery pack. One huge negative right now is that Electrify America is not providing a consistent enough charging experience to quickly charge that massive battery to take advantage of the extended range that comes with the max battery pack.

We are hostage to Electrify America for long distance driving for the foreseeable future. Which is OK on some days, but makes for a miserable experience if the chargers are broken, or limiting speeds.

 

[ads75]

Even if you don't utilize Max Pack range for yourself, say as a short mileage daily driver, when you go to sell the vehicle, the buyer will want Max Pack.

Note your future sale date will undoubtedly be a time with upgraded range, charging voltage, and other advancements in EV. There will also be more alternative EV supply availability.

I've never bought a vehicle with the next buyers needs in my mind. I buy what I want and am willing to pay, not the next owner. I am also picking the colors I want, not what is top of a popularity pole.

 

[mgc0216]

I've never bought a vehicle with the next buyers needs in my mind. I buy what I want and am willing to pay, not the next owner. I am also picking the colors I want, not what is top of a popularity pole.

I never understand the point of posts like this. @moosehead made a very reasonable point: Not having a max pack could affect resale. If that's not something you'd consider, bully for you. But it might be something that OP or another reader had not considered.

Or maybe they had considered it, and decided it didn't figure into their calculus on which pack to buy. Either way they didn't feel the need to post a message that didn't advance the conversation (sorta like this one).

But, seriously, what's your point? When you offered up this unsolicited opinion, what was the thought process on the benefit? I'm genuinely asking because I see posts like this all the time and can't figure out why they get written.

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