Do I really need the Max Pack?

ajdelange

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Face it guys. Whatever the economics, whatever tax bills may or may not pass, despite the carefully thought out rationale we may have constructed leading us to to accept he Large, however long we may have to wait for it, WE WANT THE MAX.





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CommodoreAmiga

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Is it too far a stretch to state that for most, if you can afford a Rivian, you can afford a Max Pack?
I think that is an inappropriate assumption.

We all have a limit. If it were a $50 or even a $100 option then I'd say it was small enough to not matter... But $10k is significant enough to matter.

Some people may already be pushing their budgets to make this aspirational purchase, and $10k takes it out of the "it's a lot, but it's what I really want" realm and puts it firmly into the "no, this is not doable" realm.
 

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Is it too far a stretch to state that for most, if you can afford a Rivian, you can afford a Max Pack?
My practical side and my wife say, just get a Honda Ridgeline for 1/2 the price. So the further north the price gets, the harder it is to justify. I think the R1T is like a Swiss Army Knife, super car straight line speed, adjustable suspension, active roll, etc, but I’m at $90k on a mid size electric truck? Maybe it’s just me, but car/truck prices are getting crazy. Now if it’s truly well built, last for 10-20 years with little maintenance, and is efficient to operate, then it’s worth it.
 

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Is it too far a stretch to state that for most, if you can afford a Rivian, you can afford a Max Pack?
Yes. I'm in the camp @CommodoreAmiga mentions. I've read through a lot of the custom vanity plates thread on this forum and can't warrant the extra expense. My wife and I earn +- $130K combined Luckily we live in a area with fairly low cost of living and generally live below our means. I may not be the exact example, if the max pack was the only choice I could still afford it but I do still feel that R1's are attainable by middle class work-a-day types and the cheaper you can option them greatly increases the attainability for this group.
 

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The MUST HAVE argument is only for those that will do more than around town and no blanket saying is good for everyone. If you will tow or want to take many long trips then yes range is king and probably you should save more before buying if you need to. So many will use just around town or long day trips and maybe some road charging just a few times a year. $10,000 buys a lot of charging or rental cars if you must have just once or twice. Also lower taxes and so forth on lessor cost trucks can mean saving even more money.
I feel sometimes some here want to feel they right by making everyone make their same choice. Everyone want to be on the winning team but not really a competition. Buy what range you feel you need but not what someone else says you must have. I want to wait for longer than 300 mile R1S I think for where and what I do, but cost and range numbers yet to be 100% either way. Maybe 300+ is a lot of plus and do fine for me. Maybe just barely enough or maybe I need to wait more. Don;t know yet
 

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Is it too far a stretch to state that for most, if you can afford a Rivian, you can afford a Max Pack?
I can afford it. But I can't rationalize the added 10k for my driving habits and routes.
The MUST HAVE argument is only for those that will do more than around town and no blanket saying is good for everyone. If you will tow or want to take many long trips then yes range is king and probably you should save more before buying if you need to. So many will use just around town or long day trips and maybe some road charging just a few times a year. $10,000 buys a lot of charging or rental cars if you must have just once or twice. Also lower taxes and so forth on lessor cost trucks can mean saving even more money.
I feel sometimes some here want to feel they right by making everyone make their same choice. Everyone want to be on the winning team but not really a competition. Buy what range you feel you need but not what someone else says you must have. I want to wait for longer than 300 mile R1S I think for where and what I do, but cost and range numbers yet to be 100% either way. Maybe 300+ is a lot of plus and do fine for me. Maybe just barely enough or maybe I need to wait more. Don;t know yet
Exactly I can literally count the number of times I've driven more than 300 miles in a day from my house in the last ten years on my hands. Am I excited to take advantage of the R1T and make some awesome road trips and adventures? Yep! But if I can't make something with the R1T, I could literally cover rentals in profit alone from investing that 10k over the lifespan of the R1T.

For others, the extra range is needed. Great. But not all of us.
 

mkhuffman

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If they can get me to 330 miles of TRUE highway miles in summer/winter.... meaning I can go 75mph and use the A/C and heater (I usually keep the thermostat around 65 degrees) then I'll be okay with that.

But it seems unlikely, based on how other EVs perform, that this will be the case.
That is pretty much impossible. IMO. The Mustang Mach-E is getting 2.5 to 2.7 mi/kWh at 75 mph with good weather. Bad weather or faster speed push it down to 2 mi/kWh. The MME will get 3-4 mi/kWh around town, so it easily meets the EPA range in general. Aerodynamics play a massive role in range on the highway, and the Rivians are not very aerodynamic, especially compared to sedans or CUVs like the MME.

If you get 2 mi/kWh at 75 mph, it will be nearly a miracle and on a perfect weather day with no heat or A/C being used. If the battery pack has 135 kWh usable power, that is 270 miles of range. Realistically the usable capacity of the 135 pack is 90%, which means 121 kWh, or 242 miles. With the 180 pack, that's 162 usable and 324 miles from 100% to 0%. (And will you really drive it down to 0%?)

But I doubt the R1 can do 2 mi/kWh at 75 mph. To meet Rivian's 400 mile range estimates, they are assuming EPA cycle efficiency of around 2.5 mi/kWh. I think that is definitely achievable, but if you drop the efficiency for 75 mph highway speeds in a similar way as occurs with other EVs, it will be well below 2 mi/kWh.

Everyone will be watching very closely for real world testing once they finally start deliveries. It is something I will be watching, for sure!
 

ajdelange

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ABRP estimates the R1T's consumption at 65 as 516 Wh/mi. Using the estimated 400 miles EPA range with the supposed 180 kWh battery gives 450 Wh/mi as the estimated EPA rated consumption. I guess 516 is a reasonable WAG at the 65 mph consumption. A vehicle's drag coefficient really only becomes important as higher speeds are encountered. The component of consumption attributable to many of the forces that act on a vehicle are more or less constant or are linearly dependent on the speed of the vehicle. The drag component, however, depends on th e square of velocity. Thus a truck with higher Cd sees drag emerge as it's main retarder at lower speed than something like the Plaid S with it's incredible 0.208 Cd.

Everyone talks about range. 'i want the max because of the extra 100 mi range..." Many of us with BEV driving experience don't think of it as having extra range so much as we do in terms of having extra battery. Of course if you tell me you are going to give me 50 kWh extra battery the first thing I do is the mental calculation that turns that into EPA range but at the same time I am well aware that "extra battery" has implications beyond extra mileage such as not having to charge so often, being able to charge faster and being able to leave the car at the airport longer without having to worry about coming home to a depleted battery or, in the Rivian context, being able to stay at a camp site longer and run larger appliances longer from the AC outlets. In a protracted power outage the truck with the bigger battery will supply electricity from the outlets longer than one with a smaller battery. Are any of these things worth the money? That you will have to decide for yourselves.

So in trying to make your decision consider some of these other aspects of having a bigger battery.
 
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Ray R

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ABRP estimates the R1T's consumption at 65 as 516 Wh/mi. Using the estimated 400 miles EPA range with the supposed 180 kWh battery gives 450 Wh/mi as the estimated EPA rated consumption. I guess 516 is a reasonable WAG at the 65 mph consumption. A vehicle's drag coefficient really only becomes important as higher speeds are encountered. The component of consumption attributable to many of the forces that act on a vehicle are more or less constant or are linearly dependent on the speed of the vehicle. The drag component, however, depends on th e square of velocity. Thus a truck with higher Cd sees drag emerge as it's main retarder at lower speed than something like the Plaid S with it's incredible 0.208 Cd.

Everyone talks about range. 'i want the max because of the extra 100 mi range..." Many of us with BEV driving experience don't think of it as having extra range so much as we do in terms of having extra battery. Of course if you tell me you are going to give me 50 kWh extra battery the first thing I do is the mental calculation that turns that into EPA range but at the same time I am well aware that "extra battery" has implications beyond extra mileage such as not having to charge so often, being able to charge faster and being able to leave the car at the airport longer without having to worry about coming home to a depleted battery or, in the Rivian context, being able to stay at a camp site longer and run larger appliances longer from the AC outlets. In a protracted power outage the truck with the bigger battery will supply electricity from the outlets longer than one with a smaller battery. Are any of these things worth the money? That you will have to decide for yourselves.

So in trying to make your decision consider some of these other aspects of having a bigger battery.
I know I’m picking nits, but no company is going to “give” you 50 kWH of battery. There will certainly be a cost for that extra battery. That cost is where some of us (me) are struggling to justify it. It seems from most of the posts I’ve read here, the extra battery is a “nice to have” vs the few where it’s a “must have” based on their intended use. For ME, I can’t think of a situation where I’d need that extra battery. And my experience with our Bolt, so far, is proving that theory to be true.
 

ajdelange

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I know I’m picking nits, but no company is going to “give” you 50 kWH of battery.
If you are going to be that picky I'll point out that the phrase was "....if you tell me you are going to give me 50 kWh extra battery..." implying that you are going to give it to me - not some company,

Clearly you missed the point which was that even though I am trying to broaden peoples focus away from just miles that we all translate energy into miles. Sort of the reverse of the way in which Australians naturally translate miles into "tinnies".

For ME, I can’t think of a situation where I’d need that extra battery.
Ah, but I can and I listed a couple. Of course "nice to have" and "desperately need" are on a continuum (at opposite ends) and where one falls (you did emphasize "me") does depend on the individual.
 
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If you are going to be that picky I'll point out that the phrase was "....if you tell me you are going to give me 50 kWh extra battery..." implying that you are going to give it to me - not some company,

Clearly you missed the point which was that even though I am trying to broaden peoples focus away from just miles that we all translate energy into miles. Sort of the reverse of the way in which Australians naturally translate miles into "tinnies".

Ah, but I can and I listed a couple. Of course "nice to have" and "desperately need" are on a continuum (at opposite ends) and where one falls (you did emphasize "me") does depend on the individual.
And clearly you missed the point that the energy you speak of comes at a fairly dear cost, one which most have to weigh for themselves whether it is worth it or not. Obviously, some will spend it and some won’t.
My point of this thread was to hear what justification others have used to spend $10k, maybe even $20k depending on how the tax credits work out, for that extra energy. I wanted to make sure I wasn’t forgetting some big benefit that I hadn’t considered. You have contributed to that list, and I thank you for it.
 

mkhuffman

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ABRP estimates the R1T's consumption at 65 as 516 Wh/mi. Using the estimated 400 miles EPA range with the supposed 180 kWh battery gives 450 Wh/mi as the estimated EPA rated consumption. I guess 516 is a reasonable WAG at the 65 mph consumption. A vehicle's drag coefficient really only becomes important as higher speeds are encountered. The component of consumption attributable to many of the forces that act on a vehicle are more or less constant or are linearly dependent on the speed of the vehicle. The drag component, however, depends on th e square of velocity. Thus a truck with higher Cd sees drag emerge as it's main retarder at lower speed than something like the Plaid S with it's incredible 0.208 Cd.

Everyone talks about range. 'i want the max because of the extra 100 mi range..." Many of us with BEV driving experience don't think of it as having extra range so much as we do in terms of having extra battery. Of course if you tell me you are going to give me 50 kWh extra battery the first thing I do is the mental calculation that turns that into EPA range but at the same time I am well aware that "extra battery" has implications beyond extra mileage such as not having to charge so often, being able to charge faster and being able to leave the car at the airport longer without having to worry about coming home to a depleted battery or, in the Rivian context, being able to stay at a camp site longer and run larger appliances longer from the AC outlets. In a protracted power outage the truck with the bigger battery will supply electricity from the outlets longer than one with a smaller battery. Are any of these things worth the money? That you will have to decide for yourselves.

So in trying to make your decision consider some of these other aspects of having a bigger battery.
I prefer to use mi/kWh because it is easier to translate that into distance, and range is my most important reason for paying for the Max pack. In any case, 516 Wh/mi is 1.94 mi/kWh, and I agree that might be possible at 65 mph. Maybe. If the weather is great and there is no excessive load like a resistance heater. It will be harder to achieve that efficiency at 75 mph, of course.

So if the usable capacity of the 180 pack is 162 kWh, that is a highway range of 314 miles, assuming you drive to empty. Most people will aim to recharge no lower than 10%, and a DCFC will probably hit the cliff at 80%, so really on a road trip you are using 70% of 162 kWh, which means a range of 220 miles between chargers.

EVs have a long way to go before they can replace ICE for road trips. Not that I won't do it, but most people will find that sort of range frustrating. The Max pack definitely helps, and if you can afford it, I would definitely get the max pack.

I have not ordered yet, because I want to see real world testing first and I am holding out for the removable roof. But if I do order, it will be the biggest battery they offer.
 

Gshenderson

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EVs have a long way to go before they can replace ICE for road trips. Not that I won't do it, but most people will find that sort of range frustrating. The Max pack definitely helps, and if you can afford it, I would definitely get the max pack.
On long road trips in my Tesla (several round trips between east coast and Rocky Mountains), the cost offset helped mitigate any inconvenience from stopping more often to charge. $600+ in savings on gas more than made up for the few extra hours of travel time. Not to mention it’s actually more relaxing to stop and rest, take a bio break and/or get a bite to eat every couple of hours. Probably safer as well.

I'm not suggesting or expecting Rivian charging will be free like Tesla is for me, but I’ve actually come to enjoy and appreciate the less hectic determination to get from origin to destination as fast as humanly possible. If you’re forced to stop and smell the roses, you might discover that you actually enjoy them. YMMV.
 

mkhuffman

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On long road trips in my Tesla (several round trips between east coast and Rocky Mountains), the cost offset helped mitigate any inconvenience from stopping more often to charge. $600+ in savings on gas more than made up for the few extra hours of travel time. Not to mention it’s actually more relaxing to stop and rest, take a bio break and/or get a bite to eat every couple of hours. Probably safer as well.

I'm not suggesting or expecting Rivian charging will be free like Tesla is for me, but I’ve actually come to enjoy and appreciate the less hectic determination to get from origin to destination as fast as humanly possible. If you’re forced to stop and smell the roses, you might discover that you actually enjoy them. YMMV.
Yes, it is a different mind set. I drove down to NC to pick up my son from his Marine base and I did the 4.5 hour drive without stopping. Being forced to stop would have probably been good, and a lot more relaxing. My first BEV will be the Mustang Mach-E, so I will learn with that until Rivian makes a R1T with an opening roof. :)
 

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