Cancelling R1T Preorder - Reasons

[cardad]

Just get a new airstream. They are starting to produce airstreams with their own battery and motor specifically for towing with electric vehicles.

What you're referring to is a concept airstream. That is nowhere near production. The fundamental problem is aerodynamics and weight. It's not magical. Batteries are heavy and trailers and trucks are highly inefficient moving through air.

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[cardad]

I’ve come to the same conclusion but for different reasons. I love what rivian has done with the truck and do really want one. But I don’t think we are just there yet with battery tech for it to work well for trucks. I think after battery degradation, tires, 4 months of winter cold, general truck aero dynamics, the equation just doesn’t work. Worst case, I can see only getting like 150 miles of usable range (10-90%). The economics doesn’t work anymore when comparing a full take of gas in a new tundra that gets 22 mpg to the electricity to fully charge a battery that only gets 150 miles (again worst case range)


I am still keeping the reservation for now though

150 miles towing a travel trailer in the Rivian is probably highly optimistic. Given that DCFC stations tend to be 100 miles apart you're almost certainly going to be charging every 75-100 miles vs. pushing the limits of range anxiety at 150. Even with the Taycan we often have to charge within 100 miles or less given the logistics of station options along a route.

Also, there are almost no charging stations optimized for vehicles that are towing. It will stay like that for a while given the non-existent use case so the intrepid early adopters will either give up or really enjoy their extreme masochism. A little bit of a chicken-egg problem here but until batteries weigh less and trucks improve their aerodynamics I don't see a magical solution other than "short" trips. But just imagine the stress of towing in traffic, running into range anxiety, and needing to slow to a crawl on a "short" 222 mile drive (SLC to Moab) as you get passed by semis and pickups left and right. Not a good look for any EV.

I once saw a Tesla crawling along with a "small" travel trailer on the back holding up an entire caravan of traffic stretching very far back behind it. Obviously they were optimizing for range, but the reality is that they look stupid and make Tesla/EV drivers seem out of touch with reality. If the goal is mass EV adoption it would be best not to regularly show off EV drivers as extreme masochists out of touch with reality.

 

[r1t_kev]

150 miles towing a travel trailer in the Rivian is probably highly optimistic. Given that DCFC stations tend to be 100 miles apart you're almost certainly going to be charging every 75-100 miles vs. pushing the limits of range anxiety at 150. Even with the Taycan we often have to charge within 100 miles or less given the logistics of station options along a route.

Also, there are almost no charging stations optimized for vehicles that are towing. It will stay like that for a while given the non-existent use case so the intrepid early adopters will either give up or really enjoy their extreme masochism. A little bit of a chicken-egg problem here but until batteries weigh less and trucks improve their aerodynamics I don't see a magical solution other than "short" trips. But just imagine the stress of towing in traffic, running into range anxiety, and needing to slow to a crawl on a "short" 222 mile drive (SLC to Moab) as you get passed by semis and pickups left and right. Not a good look for any EV.

I once saw a Tesla crawling along with a "small" travel trailer on the back holding up an entire caravan of traffic stretching very far back behind it. Obviously they were optimizing for range, but the reality is that they look stupid and make Tesla/EV drivers seem out of touch with reality. If the goal is mass EV adoption it would be best not to regularly show off EV drivers as extreme masochists out of touch with reality.

TFL towed 8100lbs from Boulder to Frisco with Chad's R1T, about 85 miles with a steep mountain in the middle, and went from 99% to "mid-teens" SoC. I'm hoping they post the Ike Gauntlet video soon. This seems like an extreme case and, while towing with an EV might still be masochistic, I'd be willing to bet towing a 2500lb trailer on less extreme terrain would net more favorable results.

 

[roth_nj]

150 miles towing a travel trailer in the Rivian is probably highly optimistic. Given that DCFC stations tend to be 100 miles apart you're almost certainly going to be charging every 75-100 miles vs. pushing the limits of range anxiety at 150. Even with the Taycan we often have to charge within 100 miles or less given the logistics of station options along a route.

Also, there are almost no charging stations optimized for vehicles that are towing. It will stay like that for a while given the non-existent use case so the intrepid early adopters will either give up or really enjoy their extreme masochism. A little bit of a chicken-egg problem here but until batteries weigh less and trucks improve their aerodynamics I don't see a magical solution other than "short" trips. But just imagine the stress of towing in traffic, running into range anxiety, and needing to slow to a crawl on a "short" 222 mile drive (SLC to Moab) as you get passed by semis and pickups left and right. Not a good look for any EV.

I once saw a Tesla crawling along with a "small" travel trailer on the back holding up an entire caravan of traffic stretching very far back behind it. Obviously they were optimizing for range, but the reality is that they look stupid and make Tesla/EV drivers seem out of touch with reality. If the goal is mass EV adoption it would be best not to regularly show off EV drivers as extreme masochists out of touch with reality.

That 150 miles wasn’t towing, it was just regular range. Again, worst case and calling range the 10-90% of the battery. But with AT or snow tires and driving when it doesn’t get above 10F for a week, I really think that’s what we are looking at.

 

[ohmman]

To be frank you're chasing unicorns and wasting a lot of time. I've put 30k miles on our Winnebago Era 170A with up to 4 dogs, 2 kids and a wife (4 ppl + 3 large dogs) and not wasting time charging is a substantial reason why the conceptual model you speak of is nowhere near possible in the semi-distant future (aka 2025). No one has time for that masochism.

The ONLY EV camper I see being feasible is the Cybertruck + Cyberlandr bed camper as it will not suffer aerodynamic losses and adds solar panel charging. That's at least one year out and doesn't give you the room of a trailer or a van so you'd need to bring two vehicles for a family.

Diesel isn't "clean" but at least emissions wise it is far superior to air travel and if you're having to take long drives you just can't afford to waste half your day charging.

I have over 10,000 miles logged towing my Airstream with my Model X. Chasing unicorns, indeed.

I'll edit to add some details. I have a 22' Airstream, loaded weight typically 4300#, so not a tiny trailer by any stretch but also not big. With our X90D, we would get about 120 miles of range with the rig. We still managed to make our first trip in 2017 from Sonoma up through Glacier NP, Banff, BC, circuit the Olympic Peninsula and back down the coast. And the charging networks were slim at the time. We did long trips year after year until we were ready to upgrade.

With our 2020 X LR++, we get 150 miles easily without having to charge above 90% or below 10%. We've been throughout California, Utah, and Arizona with that rig.

There is no masochism involved. Every year it gets easier, and all it takes is a little forethought. It's also an absolute pleasure to tow with an EV because you have no downshifting on passes, you capture regen on the way back down, and arriving or leaving the campsite makes almost no noise at all.

 

[RideAlong]

Thank you very much for what you share. I have reserved a Rivian R1T max pack as well for towing a 28 feet Airstream that I will receive in July 2022. What is the size of your Airstream? Do you tow with your model X base on its front and rear axles gross weight limits with a weight distribution or with its towing figures provided by Tesla? Have you change the original hich? I am considering the model X…. Before an internal combustion engine vehicle… Looking forward for your feed back. Regards, Bernard

..I doubt very seriously that you will be receiving your R1T max pack this July.

 

[Monkey]

..I doubt very seriously that you will be receiving your R1T max pack this July.

More like July 2023…. Since max pack won’t even go into production until Q2 ‘23 at the earliest.. My max pack order is estimated for “2nd half 2023”. I could probably take delivery of that truck this July~September if I switched to large pack.

 

[Bernard]

..I doubt very seriously that you will be receiving your R1T max pack this July.

I have put both in the same sentence but Your right, only my Airstream is coming this coming summer. I have been informed that my Rivian will arrive the first half of 2023…. Much patience is needed.

 

[thrill]

I'm older, I'm 50, grumpy gen-x represent. I have and always will more of a lead foot. These days I try and keep it within 10% of the limit...

 

[Bernard]

Hi Bernard,

I've been towing for 5 years with two different Model Xs. I've done extensive write-ups over at TMC, and you can start by looking at this thread. There are other threads where I and other enthusiasts have shared our towing experiences, consumption numbers, etc.

The short of it is that I do use weight distribution, but I had to replace the stock receiver on the Model X to use it. I have a 22' Sport, which stays under the 500# tongue weight and 5000# trailer weight limits provided by Tesla. Your 28' Airstream will be too large and heavy for an X, but I do encourage you to read up. Note that my thread starts in 2017 with a shorter range X, so a lot has improved over that time and towing is significantly easier with more Supercharger coverage and range.

Good luck!

Thank you Mark for sharing your experience. I have read all the thread since 2016! Very interesting. You were at the forefront of your time Mark if I may say….

I notice early on in the thread that you know Andy Thompson. I have appreciate very much all his parers on towing Airstream trailers. Andy and I have exchange on the subject and base on his Towing paper entitled « Tesla experience » he is confident that the Tesla M3 and Y could tow more than 22 feet Airstream…. And this is published…
I don’t want to talk for him but like many from this tread he rely on the weight distribution. But he rely it also with the Front and Rear gross axles weight capacities. I know those properties change from year to year and morelikely when the OEM revise the model such as this year for model X. So we can not provide firm permanent data…

For the Model X 2020 that you own Mark, could you confirm that:

The Gross vehicle weight rating is: 6250 lbs?

The Base Curb weight is:5534 lbs?

The Front gross axle is:3241 lb?

The Rear gross axle is:3792 lbs?

I found those figures on the internet, this is why I suggest you validate them….
If those numbers are adequate, and the owner, respect the front and rear gross axle limits, could he put more than 500 pound on the hitch, using a WD? What other considerations do you see?

If we push this thread further
Now with your front and rear gross axles figures, if you prioritize your hitch load and you have only 300 pounds of passengers, and 200 pounds of baggage on the model X, how much hitch load do you think you could add With a two axles Airstream trailer? Having a WD over 4 axles…
My regards,
Bernard

 

[Babbuino]

I have over 10,000 miles logged towing my Airstream with my Model X. Chasing unicorns, indeed.

I'll edit to add some details. I have a 22' Airstream, loaded weight typically 4300#, so not a tiny trailer by any stretch but also not big. With our X90D, we would get about 120 miles of range with the rig. We still managed to make our first trip in 2017 from Sonoma up through Glacier NP, Banff, BC, circuit the Olympic Peninsula and back down the coast. And the charging networks were slim at the time. We did long trips year after year until we were ready to upgrade.

With our 2020 X LR++, we get 150 miles easily without having to charge above 90% or below 10%. We've been throughout California, Utah, and Arizona with that rig.

There is no masochism involved. Every year it gets easier, and all it takes is a little forethought. It's also an absolute pleasure to tow with an EV because you have no downshifting on passes, you capture regen on the way back down, and arriving or leaving the campsite makes almost no noise at all.

I think you are one of the most experienced guys here towing with an EV. You may enjoy this more than the rest of us ?

 

[cardad]

I think you are one of the most experienced guys here towing with an EV. You may enjoy this more than the rest of us ?

I thought they already made a video where they were on vacation and basically said that towing was impractical and they gave up. It was a clickbait video because they basically said towing with the Rivian was so inefficient they abandoned the effort shortly after starting. There was no “content”.

 

[Sgt Beavis]

With the reports of 200 units per week and issues with Samsung, I‘m no longer confident I’ll take delivery by the end of the year. At this point I’m hedging my bets and shopping for a pickup or SUV. Currently considering a Tahoe Z71 on the SUV side of things. I’m also waiting on the refreshed GMC Sierra AT4 or Chevy Silverado ZR2.

 

[Pathfinder]

I’ve come to the same conclusion but for different reasons. I love what rivian has done with the truck and do really want one. But I don’t think we are just there yet with battery tech for it to work well for trucks. I think after battery degradation, tires, 4 months of winter cold, general truck aero dynamics, the equation just doesn’t work. Worst case, I can see only getting like 150 miles of usable range (10-90%). The economics doesn’t work anymore when comparing a full take of gas in a new tundra that gets 22 mpg to the electricity to fully charge a battery that only gets 150 miles (again worst case range)


I am still keeping the reservation for now though

This is similar to where I've landed as well. I'm a single car household and had a Tesla Model3 for a year and 11,000 miles as an experiment of sorts into how an EV would work for me. What I learned is that an EV is certainly doable, but the Tesla supercharger network was a huge part of making it work.

I can't say that I ever really experienced range anxiety and certainly never had a situation where I was left stranded. However, now that I've gone back to an ICE for 6 months I've realized that I made a lot of sacrifices with the EV that I just don't have to make with an ICE. I've driven the ICE about 11,000 miles in 6 months. Those have been almost entirely fun/pleasure miles. Certainly very few of them have been "required" but much moreso "because I can."

I've come to realize that while the Tesla offered a lot of options, it also required a lot of sacrifices for the type of travel I do. My best example is right after I got the Defender I was on vacation and was having lunch in a small, obscure town near the Four Corners. While I was eating I was looking at the map and noticed a cool area in Utah that I wanted to check out and just decided to go see what it was about. That's the kind of thing I couldn't have done in the Tesla without a Supercharger (or other L3 type option) nearby.

I could have easily made it back to my hotel from my lunch spot, and they had an L2 charger where I could have charged every night, but a spur of the moment change of route to go see something of interest wasn't in the cards. I can't recall if the town had an EV charging station or not, most towns are starting to put in L2 chargers which is great. However even if I had charged at an L2 for an hour while I ate lunch it wouldn't have been enough for my side excursion.

TL/DR, I haven't canceled yet but given the type of traveling I enjoy, an EV (Rivian or otherwise) is still too hampered by a growing charging network to allow me to "see where this road goes" or "take the long way home" on a whim (long in this case being a 2 hour route over a different mountain pass).

 

[roth_nj]

This is similar to where I've landed as well. I'm a single car household and had a Tesla Model3 for a year and 11,000 miles as an experiment of sorts into how an EV would work for me. What I learned is that an EV is certainly doable, but the Tesla supercharger network was a huge part of making it work.

I can't say that I ever really experienced range anxiety and certainly never had a situation where I was left stranded. However, now that I've gone back to an ICE for 6 months I've realized that I made a lot of sacrifices with the EV that I just don't have to make with an ICE. I've driven the ICE about 11,000 miles in 6 months. Those have been almost entirely fun/pleasure miles. Certainly very few of them have been "required" but much moreso "because I can."

I've come to realize that while the Tesla offered a lot of options, it also required a lot of sacrifices for the type of travel I do. My best example is right after I got the Defender I was on vacation and was having lunch in a small, obscure town near the Four Corners. While I was eating I was looking at the map and noticed a cool area in Utah that I wanted to check out and just decided to go see what it was about. That's the kind of thing I couldn't have done in the Tesla without a Supercharger (or other L3 type option) nearby.

I could have easily made it back to my hotel from my lunch spot, and they had an L2 charger where I could have charged every night, but a spur of the moment change of route to go see something of interest wasn't in the cards. I can't recall if the town had an EV charging station or not, most towns are starting to put in L2 chargers which is great. However even if I had charged at an L2 for an hour while I ate lunch it wouldn't have been enough for my side excursion.

TL/DR, I haven't canceled yet but given the type of traveling I enjoy, an EV (Rivian or otherwise) is still too hampered by a growing charging network to allow me to "see where this road goes" or "take the long way home" on a whim (long in this case being a 2 hour route over a different mountain pass).

Almost all the driving I would do could easily fit in the daily range. But…. Looking at that worst case usage for the Rivian, I’m looking at about $.11 cents per miles based on my rates. I know solar would offset this but I don’t have solar or the investment money to make that work. The new tundra hybrid would come in at about $.13 cents per mile at current gas prices…. So the cost to actually drive the two trucks would be very similar but also cost about 20k more for the Rivian.

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