California | Real-world experience driving in R-1/R-2 road conditions…?

[Matty J]

Do any folks who live in or who travel to California have any real world experience with driving in R1/R2 snow conditions, with an AWD, and either M+S tires, or three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) tires in CA?

I’m thinking roads like, Angeles Crest HWY to Waterman and Mt. High, Lake Arrowhead, Big Bear, Yosemite, Mammoth etc…

When I was in Yosemite in November 2019 for Thanksgiving, there was a large storm that mostly passed, with the roads still requiring chains at park entry. I don’t recall if the conditions were R2 or R3, unfortunately. This was all new to me, as I had driven sedans previously. I had an Telluride SUV with AWD, and M+S tires, but was required to put on chains.

I’m wondering if when I get my R1S with 20″ A/T 3PMSF tires or the 22″ M+S, If I would be allowed to proceed without chains going to Arrowhead, Mammoth, Big Bear etc…, as long as I had chains ready if needed.

Angeles Crest Hwy is just out my back door, and my two boys when it snows love to go on a quick adventure, and it would be nice to hit the road, without having to chain up for a few hours of snow play and adventuring.

Leaning towards the 22’s as we do a lot of city/freeway driving, but also lots of trips where the A/T could be better and more convenient. In a couple years as the RAN is built out, it won’t be as big a deal, I don’t think. But for now, our trips require a destination charger to be present where we stay usually….

I've been using ABRP to map trips using 510 WH/MI @ 65MPH, speed factor of 120%, 300lbs, head wind 5MPH, and max speed of 85MPH to get a feel for what is possible. I'm thinking this is a good formula for the 20" A/T for consumption. Any suggestions for the 22", and am I right at thinking 510WI/MI for the 20's?

Thanks for any insight you can provide!

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[SANZC02]

Do any folks who live in or who travel to California have any real world experience with driving in R1/R2 snow conditions, with an AWD, and either M+S tires, or three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) tires in CA?

I’m thinking roads like, Angeles Crest HWY to Waterman and Mt. High, Lake Arrowhead, Big Bear, Yosemite, Mammoth etc…

When I was in Yosemite in November 2019 for Thanksgiving, there was a large storm that mostly passed, with the roads still requiring chains at park entry. I don’t recall if the conditions were R2 or R3, unfortunately. This was all new to me, as I had driven sedans previously. I had an Telluride SUV with AWD, and M+S tires, but was required to put on chains.

I’m wondering if when I get my R1S with 20″ A/T 3PMSF tires or the 22″ M+S, If I would be allowed to proceed without chains going to Arrowhead, Mammoth, Big Bear etc…, as long as I had chains ready if needed.

Angeles Crest Hwy is just out my back door, and my two boys when it snows love to go on a quick adventure, and it would be nice to hit the road, without having to chain up for a few hours of snow play and adventuring.

Leaning towards the 22’s as we do a lot of city/freeway driving, but also lots of trips where the A/T could be better and more convenient. In a couple years as the RAN is built out, it won’t be as big a deal, I don’t think. But for now, our trips require a destination charger to be present where we stay usually….

I've been using ABRP to map trips using 510 WH/MI @ 65MPH, speed factor of 120%, 300lbs, head wind 5MPH, and max speed of 85MPH to get a feel for what is possible. I'm thinking this is a good formula for the 20" A/T for consumption. Any suggestions for the 22", and am I right at thinking 510WI/MI for the 20's?

Thanks for any insight you can provide!

From my experience in CA, they tend to lean towards requiring chains. Sometimes with 4wd and snow tires they let you through but require you have them and later can request you put them on.

It was different for me as well coming from New England and never even owning a pair of chains. We used to ski in Vermont and New Hampshire all the time without requiring them.

My suggestion, if traveling in CA buy a pair and have them with you going to the mountains. If you have to buy them there they will be expensive, that I know from experience.

 

[crashmtb]

I have not driven in California in R2 conditions, and from my understanding if things get to the R3 stage, the road is generally closed anyway.



However, I have driven extensively in equivalent conditions in western Canada, on both severe Service rated dedicated winter tires, and m+s all seasons.

The 22” M+S option is a summer-biased all season tire, from everything I’ve read. If you really want that option, buy a second set of 20” wheels with dedicated winter tires.

You’d probably be ok with the 21” default all seasons and chains.

but to avoid dealing with a second set of wheels, and/or chains(carry them regardless, as it’s required even if you don’t need to use them), of the factory choices, the 20” ATs are the way to go.

interesting note; california’s definition of snow tires does not consider 3PMS tires, just M+S(the 3pms symbol only dates to 1999)

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=27459.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=125

 

[electrictaco]

I had to look up what these conditions are, so I'll post them here for others. These are the CalTrans chain level requirements that define the level of chain control.

Living in California, I have never had to install chains. If they are requiring them for all vehicles they usually just shut down the highway.

Chain Requirement Levels

During the winter months, motorists may encounter traction chain controls in the mountain areas within California. When chain controls are established, signs will be posted along the road indicating the type of requirement. There are Three Levels of Chain Requirements in California:

• Requirement 1 (R-1): Chains are required on all vehicles except passenger vehicles and light-duty trucks under 6,000 pounds gross weight and equipped with snow tires on at least two drive wheels. Chains must be carried by vehicles using snow tires. All vehicles towing trailers must have chains on one drive axle. Trailers with brakes must have chains on at least one axle.
• Requirement 2 (R2): Chains or traction devices are required on all vehicles except four-wheel/all-wheel drive vehicles with snow-tread tires on all four wheels.
  NOTE: (Four-wheel/all-wheel drive vehicles must carry traction devices in chain control areas.)
• Requirement 3 (R3): Chains or traction devices are required on all vehicles, no exceptions.

I have experience driving to Tahoe in heavy snow events. Most of the time these are R1/R2 events. Anytime that there is an R3 level event on I-80, the highway pretty much just closes. I've driven up in heavy snow and through chain control in 3 different vehicles and tire combinations:

• 2017 Subaru Crosstrek with Yokohama Geolandar G91F
  • This car ripped through snow and slick highways. The Subaru AWD system is no joke and I made it up a steep, unplowed driveway in Truckee with 16" of snow. Even with the All Season tires, the Subaru had no issues navigating the roads.
• 2016 Audi Q5 with Continental CrossContact LX25
  • I've driven up a number of times with my buddy who has a Q5. He grew up in the Bay Area and drove to Tahoe every weekend growing up. His family has never purchased snow tires for any of their cars. Coming from the east coast, I thought this was madness, but one drive up in the Quattro equipped SUV and I was convinced that a good AWD system can make almost any M+S rated tire work on even the slipperiest roads.
• 2018 Toyota Tacoma TRD Off Road with Goodyear Wrangler A/T Adventure
  • Great tires, but if you're in variable conditions it's annoying to have to switch to 4WD instead of having an always on AWD system. The Tacoma has never gotten stuck, but with the RWD mode I've definitely fish tailed out of some corners at low speeds because it didn't look as slick as it was.

TL;DR - never had to use chains, M+S rated tires are good enough 95% of the time, and AWD>4WD

 

[wicked2112]

I have not driven in California in R2 conditions, and from my understanding if things get to the R3 stage, the road is generally closed anyway.



However, I have driven extensively in equivalent conditions in western Canada, on both severe Service rated dedicated winter tires, and m+s all seasons.

The 22” M+S option is a summer-biased all season tire, from everything I’ve read. If you really want that option, buy a second set of 20” wheels with dedicated winter tires.

You’d probably be ok with the 21” default all seasons and chains.

but to avoid dealing with a second set of wheels, and/or chains(carry them regardless, as it’s required even if you don’t need to use them), of the factory choices, the 20” ATs are the way to go.

I completely agree and will be buying a second set of winter 20 ATs for winter driving

 

[crashmtb]

I completely agree and will be buying a second set of winter 20 ATs for winter driving

if buying a second set for winter, don’t bother with an AT. Get a dedicated winter tire, like the Nokian Hakkapeliitta LT.

 

[Matty J]

I had to look up what these conditions are, so I'll post them here for others. These are the CalTrans chain level requirements that define the level of chain control.

Living in California, I have never had to install chains. If they are requiring them for all vehicles they usually just shut down the highway.

https://dot.ca.gov/travel/winter-driving-tips/chain-controls

I have experience driving to Tahoe in heavy snow events. Most of the time these are R1/R2 events. Anytime that there is an R3 level event on I-80, the highway pretty much just closes. I've driven up in heavy snow and through chain control in 3 different vehicles and tire combinations:

• 2017 Subaru Crosstrek with Yokohama Geolandar G91F
  • This car ripped through snow and slick highways. The Subaru AWD system is no joke and I made it up a steep, unplowed driveway in Truckee with 16" of snow. Even with the All Season tires, the Subaru had no issues navigating the roads.
• 2016 Audi Q5 with Continental CrossContact LX25
  • I've driven up a number of times with my buddy who has a Q5. He grew up in the Bay Area and drove to Tahoe every weekend growing up. His family has never purchased snow tires for any of their cars. Coming from the east coast, I thought this was madness, but one drive up in the Quattro equipped SUV and I was convinced that a good AWD system can make almost any M+S rated tire work on even the slipperiest roads.
• 2018 Toyota Tacoma TRD Off Road with Goodyear Wrangler A/T Adventure
  • Great tires, but if you're in variable conditions it's annoying to have to switch to 4WD instead of having an always on AWD system. The Tacoma has never gotten stuck, but with the RWD mode I've definitely fish tailed out of some corners at low speeds because it didn't look as slick as it was.

TL;DR - never had to use chains, M+S rated tires are good enough 95% of the time, and AWD>4WD

Thanks for the detailed info!

Both of Rivian's options, M+S (A/S 22's), and three peak (20" A/T) appear to qualify for R1/R2 road travel in California, providing you have chains as backup.

"Snow-tread Tires: The California Vehicle Code, Section 558 defines a snow-tread tire as follows, "A 'Snow-tread tire' is a tire which has a relatively deep and aggressive tread pattern compared with conventional passenger tread pattern". Snow-tread tires can be identified by examining the sidewall of the tire where the letters MS, M/S, M+S or the words MUD AND SNOW have been stamped into the sidewall."

It's looking like I just need to confirm that the 20" A/T will get us to where we want to go with the current charging infrastructure in place, in order to keep them as an option. Maybe I'll increase the 510 WH/MH and lower the temp further.

Great insight everyone!

 

[electrictaco]

Both of Rivian's options, M+S (A/S 22's), and three peak (20" A/T) appear to qualify for R1/R2 road travel in California, providing you have chains as backup.

All of the tire options are Mud and Snow rated (M+S). I’m going with the 21” wheels for efficiency and I expect that the Pirelli Scorpion Verde All Seasons will get me through the snow with no problems.

EDIT:
Wanted to add one more thing. If I was living somewhere with a season of snow and I knew I would need another set of tires, I would probably get the 20” wheels because there are actually some options there.

 

[yizzung]

20+ years of I-80 Donner Summit travel in CA winter. Always in BMW or Audi AWD with M+S. Have never been required to carry nor install chains. Always waved through checkpoints in even the hairiest conditions by CHP. That said, get the 20” with 3PMSF and sleep easy. Nobody should deal with chains ever—giant pain. You’d probably be fine with just 21” M+S but admittedly they don’t always inspire confidence in deep snow.

 

[Runs_4_beer]

The only time I have been required to install chains over Donner pass was while towing. Even with my 4wd F350, we needed chains on the rear axle and drag chains on the trailer. In hindsight, we should have just turned around rather than spending two hours laying in the snow and slush getting all the chains on. All other times in either the F350 or Audi Q7 we get waived through or they just close the freeway completely.

 

[AxelR]

On CA state highway, they’ll check your tires and ask to install chains if you drive a sedan or this type of cars. Most Jeeps and trucks with off-road tires are waived through - however you must have a set of fitting snow chains. The 20s AT offered by Rivian have the snow peak symbol and will be fine in most conditions in CA. We’ll just need to find chargers…

 

[Smithery]

https://dot.ca.gov/travel/winter-driving-tips/chain-controls

• Requirement 1 (R-1): Chains are required on all vehicles except passenger vehicles and light-duty trucks under 6,000 pounds gross weight and equipped with snow tires on at least two drive wheels. Chains must be carried by vehicles using snow tires. All vehicles towing trailers must have chains on one drive axle. Trailers with brakes must have chains on at least one axle.

R1 conditions allow you in with snow tires in lieu of chains *only if the gross weight is under 6,000lbs*

If your vehicle's gross weight is over 6,000lbs, chains are required in R1 conditions regardless of tire.

How does CADOT define gross in this context?

These trucks are gonna gross well over 6,000lbs, right?

 

[electrictaco]

R1 conditions allow you in with snow tires in lieu of chains *only if the gross weight is under 6,000lbs*

Only for commercial vehicles.

 

[crashmtb]

These trucks are gonna gross well over 6,000lbs, right?

yes, but will CHiPs know it weighs more than a typical gas pickup? ?

 

[crashmtb]

Only for commercial vehicles.

Other way around. Commercial vehicles must have chains in all three conditions. Passenger vehicles/light trucks can get away with snow tires. But must carry chains.

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