Battery Pack Sizes: How did the efficiency between the Gen 1 and Gen 2 change so much?

[FordRanger89]

I agree with the concerns that everyone has about the range estimates. It's similar to the concern I had when the max pack was first released. As I have pointed out before, the max pack seem to be much more efficient than any other Gen 1 model. It doesn't make sense.

I think one of the things that is happening with the Gen 2 is all of the 22" range estimates are being done with the 22 inch Aero wheels. They definitely give the best range, and maybe even slightly better than the previous 21 in wheels. So I think part of the difference people are seeing is due to the Aero wheels. I do not think the bright 22s have better range in gen 2. Maybe slightly, but not enough to explain the difference they are publishing.

I think they are not delineating between the wheels properly in the configurator. When you change from the Areo 22s to the non Areo 22s, the range should go down. Without a doubt. It doesn't.

That could be playing a part in it too. I noticed that in the configurator as well. The only thing about that is, didn't Kyle asked specifically about that in his interview? Didn't they say it would only increase the range a couple miles when compared to the 22s?

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[usofrob]

I think one of the things that is happening with the Gen 2 is all of the 22" range estimates are being done with the 22 inch Aero wheels

According to the EPA documentation, both 22" wheels are under the same label. And the documentation has a picture of the new R1 with 22" bright (not aero). So, I actually think they only tested with the previous 22" wheel and didn't even test with the newer aero wheel, just assuming it wouldn't be worse. They did a similar thing previously where they only tested the R1S and applied it to the R1T because the R1S is less efficient.

As has been mentioned, the new tires could actually make a lot of difference.

And, as others have claimed before, the 21" with or without aero covers doesn't make much difference.

Didn't they say it would only increase the range a couple miles when compared to the 22s?

Yes, I remember them saying like 2-3 miles. I was assuming he meant 2-3%, but maybe it's just very little benefit.

Also, I don't believe their cheating the EPA. They're doing the same basic testing and estimation they've always done. But, I think the gen1 got closer to it's EPA rating because it wasn't as efficient at the slower speeds. You know, it's possible that the new rear axle disconnect being so quick might actually help with range too, because they could disconnect based on power needed at lower speeds.

I expect just like with the gen1 max pack, people will be disappointed with the range of the gen2 vehicles for freeway 70+ mph. However, I've wondered if the aero wheels might actually add more % benefit and range at 70+ mph, but because the EPA testing doesn't go that fast, it's not worth it to test it. But, it may still benefit owners on road trips.

Has anyone heard when they're going to start producing the gen2 large packs? Because it seems like we may have to wait a while to find out. But, I guess the gen1 max pack to gen2 max pack could be tested pretty soon. Maybe they Kyle can get an aero vs non-aero 22" to do a side by side comparison on a 70 mph or 80 mph test loop.

 

[mkhuffman]

That could be playing a part in it too. I noticed that in the configurator as well. The only thing about that is, didn't Kyle asked specifically about that in his interview? Didn't they say it would only increase the range a couple miles when compared to the 22s?

I have not had a chance to watch his video yet.

According to the EPA documentation, both 22" wheels are under the same label. And the documentation has a picture of the new R1 with 22" bright (not aero). So, I actually think they only tested with the previous 22" wheel and didn't even test with the newer aero wheel, just assuming it wouldn't be worse. They did a similar thing previously where they only tested the R1S and applied it to the R1T because the R1S is less efficient.

As has been mentioned, the new tires could actually make a lot of difference.

And, as others have claimed before, the 21" with or without aero covers doesn't make much difference.

Yes, I remember them saying like 2-3 miles. I was assuming he meant 2-3%, but maybe it's just very little benefit.

I've wondered if the aero wheels might actually add more % benefit and range at 70+ mph, but because the EPA testing doesn't go that fast, it's not worth it to test it. But, it may still benefit owners on road trips.

I am VERY interested to see independent testing at 75 mph. Car and Driver does it, so hopefully they will get their hands on a Max R1 soon. If it turns out you are correct about how they performed EPA testing, the aero wheels should definitely be better. And I agree they will be most noticeably better at high speeds where rotational resistance becomes significant. It could be as much as 5% better at 75-80. I doubt it will be more unless the aero tires have lower rolling resistance, which will help at all speeds.

 

[Bar_Down]

I have read through that thread. It just didn't really answer my questions on range and efficiency....
How does 109.4kwh get me 330 miles of range?

Yes... the rated range implies 3.14 mi/kWh. I have seen efficiency that high on some legs of a few roadtrips I have taken, but my Gen1 R1S has a lifetime average of 2.2 mi/kWh (all types of driving, all types of temps).

 

[DuoRivian]

I have not had a chance to watch his video yet.



I am VERY interested to see independent testing at 75 mph. Car and Driver does it, so hopefully they will get their hands on a Max R1 soon. If it turns out you are correct about how they performed EPA testing, the aero wheels should definitely be better. And I agree they will be most noticeably better at high speeds where rotational resistance becomes significant. It could be as much as 5% better at 75-80. I doubt it will be more unless the aero tires have lower rolling resistance, which will help at all speeds.

I can see a 5% improvement but they need close to 20% to make up for the reduced battery size. Aerodynamics haven’t changed and the weight difference is not significant so further information required to confirm the efficiency.

 

[usofrob]

I can see a 5% improvement but they need close to 20% to make up for the reduced battery size. Aerodynamics haven’t changed and the weight difference is not significant so further information required to confirm the efficiency.

Only a 9% improvement is needed:
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...-1-and-gen-2-change-so-much.29211/post-560313

 

[mkhuffman]

I can see a 5% improvement but they need close to 20% to make up for the reduced battery size. Aerodynamics haven’t changed and the weight difference is not significant so further information required to confirm the efficiency.

The Gen2 Max has the same usable capacity as the Gen1 Max. I find it interesting (to put it nicely) the range of the Max has only increased by 10 miles when compared to the Gen1. It suggests a 2.4% improvement that should be consistent with all the battery sizes, right? But it is not. Why?

 

[DuoRivian]

Only a 9% improvement is needed:
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...-1-and-gen-2-change-so-much.29211/post-560313

A 2025 model R1T large has a 330 mile range with 22” wheels. A 2024 R1T large has 341 mile range with 22” wheels - both dual motor. The battery has decreased by 19% (109/135) and the range has only decreased by less than 3% so that means an approximate 16% efficiency improvement. I accept electronics, tires etc can make some difference but not 16% surely.

 

[FordRanger89]

A 2025 model R1T large has a 330 mile range with 22” wheels. A 2024 R1T large has 341 mile range with 22” wheels - both dual motor. The battery has decreased by 19% (109/135) and the range has only decreased by less than 3% so that means an approximate 16% efficiency improvement. I accept electronics, tires etc can make some difference but not 16% surely.

I totally agree....
I am hoping to hear back from the sales department soon. We will probably upgrade to the max pack if they allow us..... what's another 7k when you are already spending 90.... ha
If they kept the original large pack I wouldn't be worriedabout it.... I almost feel like I am being forced into the max pack.

 

[usofrob]

A 2025 model R1T large has a 330 mile range with 22” wheels. A 2024 R1T large has 341 mile range with 22” wheels - both dual motor. The battery has decreased by 19% (109/135) and the range has only decreased by less than 3% so that means an approximate 16% efficiency improvement. I accept electronics, tires etc can make some difference but not 16% surely.

Fair enough. I was comparing the gen1 21" option to the gen2 22", but maybe you're right in that it should go from the 22" to the 22" as they're the same wheel size.

But, the battery size is 109 to 131, not 135.

 

[usofrob]

I almost feel like I am being forced into the max pack.

Ditto!

 

[Riviaenz]

That's what I am afraid of....
I don't know how they cam advertise these ranges....

They do it because they simulate the prescribed EPA driving circuit following the approved lab procedures. The EPA certifies them and thus you get the claimed range. The report they submit to the EPA is available for download from the EPA.

If you drive the same pattern under the same environmental conditions (temps, road types, etc) you should be able to match it.

If you drive exclusively at 35-40mph with minimal to no stops, you'll far exceed the certified range. If you drive exclusively at 70mph+ you'll under perform. This is not unlike for gas powered vehicles and attempting to get their estimated range based on a combined mpg. Only what you'll find is with gas highway speeds will give you better efficiency where as with EV city will give you their best efficiency. And in real life (based on your driving style, conditions, environmental factors) "your milage may vary".

The point of the EPA ratings are for comparative assessment between vehicles. The reality is Gen 2 are more efficient. That's the validation the lab results provide.

 

[DuoRivian]

Fair enough. I was comparing the gen1 21" option to the gen2 22", but maybe you're right in that it should go from the 22" to the 22" as they're the same wheel size.

But, the battery size is 109 to 131, not 135.

Ok my bad on the useable battery so take 2% of the figures. The point still stands that real world efficiency data will be interesting to see. Rivian met or exceeded their EPA figures with the OG let’s see what happened with Gen1.2

 

[BigE]

Lots of discussion about the 22” tire/wheels. Remember, the New Pirelli 22” for Rivian Is the MS tire. It’s an all New 22” Pirelli made for Rivian, and I think/heard very low rolling resistance but no data to be found.

I just traded my 2022 Quad for a 2023 PDM Max..this past weekend we did a good 900 mile trip. Highway driving at ~76 mph, 84 degrees, we were getting 2.47 or ~350 miles of highway driving. Pretty please with this R1T. So to go to a new 2025 PDM Max with a lot of improvement, MS tires, heat pump, improved motors, etc may very get to 400+ which is amazing. Proof will be when some start taking delivery and share their findings.

 

[FordRanger89]

Just an update.

The sales department got back to me.
We made the decision to switch to the max pack and they were able to make that change for us.
I also got confirmation that the large pack is NOT a software limited max pack, but a different built pack. So for those of you hoping to unlock more range in the future, it won't be a thing unfortunately. I was hoping this would have been an option.
With Kyle's interview, in his refresh video, there is no mention other than the 53g cell.
So it looks like it will just be the max pack built with less modules.
In other forms they talked about 7 modules in stead of 9. That's probably what it is.

Hopefully, the gen 2 rigs will at least meet epa estimates instead of beating them like with their gen 1 rigs.

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