Top 5 Reasons Switching to a Tesla Dominated NACS Standard is a Colossal Mistake for the Consumer

[SASSquatch]

Really, you use words that you don't know what they mean? I guess I can help by providing a link to a dictionary/definition: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consider



It sure seems like they had to have considered it, according to the first definition, to make the decision/announcement that they were going to deploy NACS alongside CCS on the RAN. But maybe you don't think Rivian's management is very good, so they didn't think about it carefully, they just blurted out that they are going to add NACS without any thought?

The point of my posts are that they are going to continue to deploy CCS in the RAN network and you literally just confirmed that in your own post.

Why are you here?

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[COdogman]

Tesla has been running an open network for years in Europe. So they have plenty of experience supporting non-Teslas. But that probably doesn't matter for Ford, GM, and Rivian where Tesla will be working with them directly on the implementation for billing, etc.

That’s a great point. Their experience in Europe should be a great indicator of how this can work. I still predict a shit show with all of us trying to fit our giant EVs at their stations but that’s not their fault.

 

[ohseedee]

The point of my posts are that they are going to continue to deploy CCS in the RAN network and you literally just confirmed that in your own post.

Why are you here?

What year do you think it will be when Rivian stops installing CCS on all RAN chargers? Or do you think that day will not come?

My prediction: Rivian supports all current and future CCS R1s via the free adapter. They will NOT continue to install CCS on 100% of their RAN chargers by the end of 2025. To continue to install CCS on 100% of chargers would be pointless and a waste of money. More and more RAN chargers will have NACS only before end of 2025 and every CCS Rivian will be able to charger there with the free adaptor in their truck.

Feel free to tell me how dumb I am with that prediction but maybe remember less than 2 weeks ago you thought I was wrong for thinking Rivian would announce the move the NACS within 90 days…

While I understand you take issue with the phrase “CCS is dead” because it’s not literally “dead” and many EV and charge companies are making CCS as I type this. But it feels like you are ignoring the fact that clearly CCS‘s future will be a lot less significant than some thought it would a few weeks ago. A few weeks ago some thought CCS would be the main standard in North America, but that idea is now “dead.”. While CCS may still exist for years to come, it will be a relativly insignificant format in North America with significantly less investment than NACS.

 

[kizamybute']

Car companies wanting to provide access to Tesla Superchargers would be best served to just include BOTH ports. Put the Tesla port in the rear and the CCS port in front.

 

[SASSquatch]

What year do you think it will be when Rivian stops installing CCS on all RAN chargers? Or do you think that day will not come?

My prediction: Rivian supports all current and future CCS R1s via the free adapter. They will NOT continue to install CCS on 100% of their RAN chargers by the end of 2025. To continue to install CCS on 100% of chargers would be pointless and a waste of money. More and more RAN chargers will have NACS only before end of 2025 and every CCS Rivian will be able to charger there with the free adaptor in their truck.

Feel free to tell me how dumb I am with that prediction but maybe remember less than 2 weeks ago you thought I was wrong for thinking Rivian would announce the move the NACS within 90 days…

While I understand you take issue with the phrase “CCS is dead” because it’s not literally “dead” and many EV and charge companies are making CCS as I type this. But it feels like you are ignoring the fact that clearly CCS‘s future will be a lot less significant than some thought it would a few weeks ago. A few weeks ago some thought CCS would be the main standard in North America, but that idea is now “dead.”. While CCS may still exist for years to come, it will be a relativly insignificant format in North America with significantly less investment than NACS.

By 2025 Rivian will have hundreds of thousands of CCS vehicles on the road and exactly Zero NACS vehicles. You think it makes sense for them to not continue to build out CCS and make hundreds of thousands of people people pay for a NACS adapter to use a RAN charger that doesn’t have CCS?

That is insanity.

RJ isn’t stupid. He wants NEVI funding like everyone else. NEVI funding requires CCS at a minimum. Therefore my prediction is RAN will always have CCS first and RAN added alongside it later.

 

[ohseedee]

By 2025 Rivian will have hundreds of thousands of CCS vehicles on the road and exactly Zero NACS vehicles. You think it makes sense for them to not continue to build out CCS and make hundreds of thousands of people people pay for a NACS adapter to use a RAN charger that doesn’t have CCS?

That is insanity.

RJ isn’t stupid. He wants NEVI funding like everyone else. NEVI funding requires CCS at a minimum. Therefore my prediction is RAN will always have CCS first and RAN added alongside it later.

Got it. Thanks. Although I Got some good news for you…they already announced the adapter will be FREE to all current and future CCS vehicles. So no, I don’t think they "will make hundreds of thousands of people people pay for a NACS adapter" because they literally already said they wouldn’t. But anyhow I’ll meet you back here by 12/31/2025 with the link showing you Rivian is no longer putting CCS in all RANs (or RAN is stopped in general). until then good luck!

 

[ohseedee]

NEVI funding requires CCS at a minimum. Therefore my prediction is RAN will always have CCS first and RAN added alongside it later.

actually, since I’m feeling bold, I got one more prediction for you: i’ll also meet you back here by 12/31/2025 once funding does not require CCS at a minimum. Since by then, it would be a clear waste of taxpayer dollars to continue to invest in CCS as very few if any CCS cars will be built beyond that. Focus on NACS and every existing CCS (like my R1T) can use an adapter.

 

[MP3Mike]

You think it makes sense for them to not continue to build out CCS and make hundreds of thousands of people people pay for a NACS adapter to use a RAN charger that doesn’t have CCS?

No, they won't make people pay for it, they have already said it will be free.

RJ isn’t stupid. He wants NEVI funding like everyone else. NEVI funding requires CCS at a minimum. Therefore my prediction is RAN will always have CCS first and RAN added alongside it later.

The way RAN installs are right now they won't qualify for NEVI funding, so not an issue. (For many reasons; for example: they aren't open to non-Rivians, their minimum output power is 50kW too low, etc.) And then on top of it the remote locations wouldn't qualify for NEVI funding no matter what. (And Rivian hasn't put their hat in the ring yet for any NEVI funding in Oregon, so maybe they aren't going to bother.)

 

[SASSquatch]

actually, since I’m feeling bold, I got one more prediction for you: i’ll also meet you back here by 12/31/2025 once funding does not require CCS at a minimum. Since by then, it would be a clear waste of taxpayer dollars to continue to invest in CCS as very few if any CCS cars will be built beyond that. Focus on NACS and every existing CCS (like my R1T) can use an adapter.

Let's do a simple math lesson, shall we?

Number of OEMS who have agreed to make NACS a standard: 4
Number of OEMS who have not indicated they are making NACS a standard: Dozens.

When the math works in your favor, CCS will stop being discussed for current or in the development pipeline vehicles, and then it will be included in charging infrastructure for legacy vehicles for at least a decade.

Indefinitely in Europe because their flavor of CCS is standardized, works well, and people don't get excited about small charging ports because CCS-1 and -2 are both smaller than a petrol nozzle which has been the standard since the inception of the modern ICE vehicle.

 

[SASSquatch]

No, they won't make people pay for it, they have already said it will be free.



The way RAN installs are right now they won't qualify for NEVI funding, so not an issue. (For many reasons; for example: they aren't open to non-Rivians, their minimum output power is 50kW too low, etc.) And then on top of it the remote locations wouldn't qualify for NEVI funding no matter what. (And Rivian hasn't put their hat in the ring yet for any NEVI funding in Oregon, so maybe they aren't going to bother.)

I stand corrected on the Rivian NACS adapter being free - but that was literally just announced 24 hours ago on social media.

Regarding RAN - RJ has repeatedly said he is going to ultimately open the RAN network to other EVs in which case why on god's green earth wouldn't rivian want access to the $5 billion available to expand their network?

 

[ohseedee]

Let's do a simple math lesson, shall we?

Number of OEMS who have agreed to make NACS a standard: 4
Number of OEMS who have not indicated they are making NACS a standard: Dozens.

When the math works in your favor, CCS will stop being discussed for current or in the development pipeline vehicles, and then it will be included in charging infrastructure for legacy vehicles for at least a decade.

Indefinitely in Europe because their flavor of CCS is standardized, works well, and people don't get excited about small charging ports.

1. Your “math lesson” is pointless and skews reality. 4 vs dozens? That makes it sound like CCS has a leg up. But…wait…those 4 make up ~73% of the EV market! LOL. You say “dozens” because you are including EV makers that have shipped zero EVs.

2. Your count of 4 (which is meaningless) wont even be true days and weeks from now. That number is going to grow rapidly over the next few weeks.

 

[MP3Mike]

Regarding RAN - RJ has repeatedly said he is going to ultimately open the RAN network to other EVs in which case why on god's green earth wouldn't rivian want access to the $5 billion available to expand their network?

Then why haven't they applied for it in Oregon yet? (They only have about two weeks.)

Maybe because their installs don't meet the requirements? (Currently true.)
Could they make the necessary hardware/software changes in time to qualify? (Probably not for the first year of funding, maybe next year?)
Maybe because the locations they want to install in aren't in the allowed areas? (Very likely true.)
Maybe because it is a lot of effort with little chance of getting any money? In Oregon, for the first year of NEVI funding, there will be 3 contracts granted, but there are currently 33 entities that have put their hat in for a chance at one of those 3 contracts. (I expect it to be similar in other states.)

 

[jkennebeck]

Top 5 Reasons Switching to a Tesla Dominated NACS Standard is a Colossal Mistake for the Consumer

1.) It will limit innovation: Tesla's system, by design, is limited to 500v. CCS can support 1000v architecture. All of these companies developing 800v architecture for their next generation models, including Rivian, would effectively be forced to go back to 400 or 500v. That means that you will have a significantly slower charging speed vs. a comparable CCS system.

*Edit 1: As others have pointed out, the NACS system has a theoretical capability to achieve 1000v but there are no existing working Superchargers that have this capability and Elon Musk has repeatedly stated Tesla has no plans to support an 800v architecture. The issue is, Elon Musk and Tesla would have undue influence in deciding future architecture if they are allowed to immediately corner the NACS charging market, which they would, if everyone just switches to NACS.

*Edit 2: Even though NACS theoretically has the capability for bi-directional charging, meaning you can charge your home in case of a power outage, Elon Musk has stated he doesn't support that and has no plans to ever implement that. Tesla would be in a position to dictate new features if they control the NACS charging infrastructure.

2.) It will cost more: Elon Musk wants to make money off of you, and the OEMS could care less: Please remember this fact. Non-Tesla vehicles are charged significantly more for using a Supercharger than native Tesla owners. That will never change.

3.) It will create a tiered class system: Tesla will always, and I mean always, prioritize its own customers when it comes to user support and user experience. This is the only way they will incentivize future owners to buy Tesla in the future. When the proverbial shit hits the fan, Tesla will turn around and blame the OEM for not implementing a software change, or hardware update, etc. Welcome to the world of Apple (Tesla) vs. Android (CCS).

4.) It will create a degraded and inefficient user experience: All existing Tesla Superchargers are designed with cabling, stall positions, and architecture for Tesla vehicles. Non-Tesla vehicles do not have the ports in the correct position which means you can either not charge at all, or you have to block another charger by positioning your non-Tesla vehicle at an awkward angle. If your vehicle supports 800v architecture like the Kia EV6, you will have significantly decreased charging speed. This cannot be easily addressed by an adapter.

5.) It invites a madman into your vehicle: You are allowing Elon Musk, purveyor of chaos and who IMHO single handedly destroyed Twitter to control your charging experience. Elon Musk will always prioritize his interests and the interests of Tesla. Irrespective of any agreements, all other OEMs are competitors. Imagine the information he can obtain from your vehicle, driver history, specifications, charging curves, etc. by controlling the charging experience. He will absolutely use that information to the advantage of Tesla and to the detriment of every other OEM.

Edit 3: Changed title to better differentiate Tesla monopoly vs NACS standard

Yep, agree with most of this. I'm glad I have a CCS Rivian and will probably only end up using Tesla superchargers when road-tripping as last resorts.

 

[SASSquatch]

Then why haven't they applied for it in Oregon yet? (They only have about two weeks.)

Maybe because their installs don't meet the requirements? (Currently true.)
Could they make the necessary hardware/software changes in time to qualify? (Probably not for the first year of funding, maybe next year?)
Maybe because the locations they want to install in aren't in the allowed areas? (Very likely true.)
Maybe because it is a lot of effort with little chance of getting any money? In Oregon, for the first year of NEVI funding, there will be 3 contracts granted, but there are currently 33 entities that have put their hat in for a chance at one of those 3 contracts. (I expect it to be similar in other states.)

Again, what are you talking about? Oregon? WTF?

Rivian is planning to put MOST of their chargers along highways and roads. Obviously some will be in remote areas.

This is literally from the Rivian Website:

The Rivian Adventure Network of DC fast chargers is built for Rivian owners, making it easy to pull up and plug in without touching a button. We’re installing 3,500+ of these chargers at approximately 600 sites along popular routes and highways, to help you charge up and get back on the road, adding up to 140 miles of range in 20 minutes.

https://rivian.com/experience/charging

I'm done beating this dead, uninformed horse.

Here's your sign...

 

[SASSquatch]

1. Your “math lesson” is pointless and skews reality. 4 vs dozens? That makes it sound like CCS has a leg up. But…wait…those 4 make up ~73% of the EV market! LOL. You say “dozens” because you are including EV makers that have shipped zero EVs.

2. Your count of 4 (which is meaningless) wont even be true days and weeks from now. That number is going to grow rapidly over the next few weeks.

1.) I'm sorry - Dozens is still dozens. And guess what. The market you speak is the way it is because those dozens of OEMs haven't committed fully to EVs. Toyota has been the biggest vehicle producer by volume for eternity. They just released their first EV. They are late to the game, but they will make up ground - so will all the other OEMS.

Again, when your math actually works, come find me.

2.) CCS chargers outnumber NACS charging stations by a wide margin.

"As of June 21, 2023, there are 5,240 CCS1 charging station locations in the US, compared to 1,803 locations for the Tesla Superchargers.1 day ago

https://insideevs.com/news/673190/n...1, 2023,locations for the Tesla Superchargers.

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