Top 5 Reasons Switching to a Tesla Dominated NACS Standard is a Colossal Mistake for the Consumer

[SASSquatch]

I might be misunderstanding but, in that scenario, couldn't you just use a NACS to CCS adapter and charge at the hypothetical cheaper and better CCS station? Switching to NACS just gives us the option to use more chargers. Just like how Teslas aren't locked to only using Tesla chargers, a Rivian with NACS wouldn't be forced to only use the Tesla network.

You could, but wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having a NACS port? In that specific example, I was more commenting that the existing NACS charging network is designed only for Tesla vehicles. It is a suboptimal charging experience for non-Tesla vehicles.

Everyone around here is completely confounding the experience of using an NACS port at a Supercharger as a Tesla owner vs. as a non-Tesla owner. Even for Tesla Supercharger stations that are equipped with a "Magic Dock" with a CCS adapter currently, it is not a good experience.

Here is a great blog post that steps through all of the issues from one of my favorite auto reviewers.

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[SASSquatch]

I think that is the big point here. This isn't so much a play for the NACS connector, it's a play for access to the Supercharger network. The arguably better plug just comes along for the ride.

Even if Rivian adopts it, for instance, they will still need to negotiate for access.


Government is going to do whatever government is going to do. Conversely, does months of planning suddenly change because two companies announce something that is still years off? Could you imagine having to resubmit your bid after it's already approved because DOE or DOT decided, after the fact, to require NACS?

Maybe if more than 2 legit (not Apterra, cmon...) announce support...

Let's say for the sake of argument that NACS has momentum as a standard and a bunch of other OEMs follow suit.

By the time OEMS equip NACS ports on vehicles in a few years from now, there will be over 1 million + CCS vehicles on the road since OEMS are selling CCS vehicles through to 2025 until they switch.

In that scenario, you would need to support CCS indefinitely to accommodate the 1 million + owners of those vehicles. CCS would be around for likely decades.

 

[CharonPDX]

Not only does Elon not control NACS, he didn't even fully define it. He left the V2x "up for other companies to figure out" and even the actual electrical protocol is "just use CCS". Literally the only thing Tesla/Elon defined was the physical shape of the plug/port. At this point, CharIN (the standards body behind CCS) could absolutely just say "NACS is now approved by us as CCS Combo 3, using the CCS protocol over the NACS connector much how CCS Combo 1 uses the CCS protocol over the J1772 connector plus two extra pins." (I really doubt they will, but they could.)

A few refutations of the original point:

1. (Already refuted.)

2. As mentioned above, Tesla/Elon don't control NACS. Elon just released it to the world. Sure, Tesla controls the Supercharger network, but other charge networks can slap a NACS plug on their charging units without paying Elon a dime. (There have already been demo units shown. Yes, they're just current CCS base units with the same bulky cables, and a NACS plug end swapped for the CCS plug, but they exist.) And presumably nothing about the NACS connector would cost any more than CCS to implement.

3. This already happens at CCS charge networks. "It's not our fault, it's your car's." And, again, other charge networks can use NACS without paying Tesla a time, or even consulting with Tesla on anything. Plug-and-charge the way it works for CCS should work just fine on NACS, since NACS uses the same CCS communication protocol just over a different physical plug.

4. Only at Superchargers. The other charge networks aren't going to go away. Hell, I despise Elon Musk, even if my next EV has a NACS port, I will almost certainly never use a Supercharger, as I don't want to pay Elon any money. I'll continue to use RAN for my Rivian (and maybe other vehicles once it opens up,) EA, EVgo, etc. And one would also presume that as Tesla opens up the Supercharger network, they'll have to accommodate other vehicles, and will add longer cables. As for "degraded," NACS supports 800V (see the refutations of #1 already done,) and even Elon said that the Cybertruck will be a 1000V vehicle, so presumably Superchargers will add 800V-architecture charging.

5. Again, not if you don't use the Supercharger network. NACS is now completely independent of Elon; only car companies signing up to make for easier use of the Supercharger network has anything to do with Tesla/Elon.

 

[RWerksman]

Let's say for the sake of argument that NACS has momentum as a standard and a bunch of other OEMs follow suit.

By the time OEMS equip NACS ports on vehicles in a few years from now, there will be over 1 million + CCS vehicles on the road since OEMS are selling CCS vehicles through to 2025 until they switch.

In that scenario, you would need to support CCS indefinitely to accommodate the 1 million + owners of those vehicles. CCS would be around for likely decades.

See: Chademo

The who situation sorta sucks now.

 

[SASSquatch]

See: Chademo

The who situation sorta sucks now.

All those poor Nissan Leaf owners and Chademo. I still see a fair amount of Leafs in my area.

 

[DuoRivians]

Not only does Elon not control NACS, he didn't even fully define it. He left the V2x "up for other companies to figure out" and even the actual electrical protocol is "just use CCS". Literally the only thing Tesla/Elon defined was the physical shape of the plug/port. At this point, CharIN (the standards body behind CCS) could absolutely just say "NACS is now approved by us as CCS Combo 3, using the CCS protocol over the NACS connector much how CCS Combo 1 uses the CCS protocol over the J1772 connector plus two extra pins." (I really doubt they will, but they could.)

A few refutations of the original point:

1. (Already refuted.)

2. As mentioned above, Tesla/Elon don't control NACS. Elon just released it to the world. Sure, Tesla controls the Supercharger network, but other charge networks can slap a NACS plug on their charging units without paying Elon a dime. (There have already been demo units shown. Yes, they're just current CCS base units with the same bulky cables, and a NACS plug end swapped for the CCS plug, but they exist.) And presumably nothing about the NACS connector would cost any more than CCS to implement.

3. This already happens at CCS charge networks. "It's not our fault, it's your car's." And, again, other charge networks can use NACS without paying Tesla a time, or even consulting with Tesla on anything. Plug-and-charge the way it works for CCS should work just fine on NACS, since NACS uses the same CCS communication protocol just over a different physical plug.

4. Only at Superchargers. The other charge networks aren't going to go away. Hell, I despise Elon Musk, even if my next EV has a NACS port, I will almost certainly never use a Supercharger, as I don't want to pay Elon any money. I'll continue to use RAN for my Rivian (and maybe other vehicles once it opens up,) EA, EVgo, etc. And one would also presume that as Tesla opens up the Supercharger network, they'll have to accommodate other vehicles, and will add longer cables. As for "degraded," NACS supports 800V (see the refutations of #1 already done,) and even Elon said that the Cybertruck will be a 1000V vehicle, so presumably Superchargers will add 800V-architecture charging.

5. Again, not if you don't use the Supercharger network. NACS is now completely independent of Elon; only car companies signing up to make for easier use of the Supercharger network has anything to do with Tesla/Elon.

Tesla fully controls NACS:

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/can-tesla-keep-rivian-out.15956/post-346538

 

[RyanLF]

You could, but wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having a NACS port? In that specific example, I was more commenting that the existing NACS charging network is designed only for Tesla vehicles. It is a suboptimal charging experience for non-Tesla vehicles.

Everyone around here is completely confounding the experience of using an NACS port at a Supercharger as a Tesla owner vs. as a non-Tesla owner. Even for Tesla Supercharger stations that are equipped with a "Magic Dock" with a CCS adapter currently, it is not a good experience.

Here is a great blog post that steps through all of the issues from one of my favorite auto reviewers.

It's not a perfect experience but it's better than no experience! I have places I'd like to go that I literally can't get to with the current CCS network. If I could use the CCS network and the Tesla network, that would be amazing for me! Most CCS charger companies have announced NACS cable options already too, so no adapter needed!

I was in Hood River a month ago. There were 24 Supercharger stalls, mostly empty, and four Electrify America stalls. Two of those four were broken and there was a line to use them. It would have been amazing if I had the option of popping over to use one of the vacant Superchargers!

Edit: i just read the rest of that FB post. I don't think that really apples here! With Ford and GM, Tesla is working with them to get plug and charge working. It seems like most of the guy's issue was using the app to start the charge. If Rivian agreed to go NACS, it'd be a plug and charge experience like Ford and GM announced!

 

[DuoRivians]

It's not a perfect experience but it's better than no experience! I have places I'd like to go that I literally can't get to with the current CCS network. If I could use the CCS network and the Tesla network, that would be amazing for me! Most CCS charger companies have announced NACS cable options already too, so no adapter needed!

I was in Hood River a month ago. There were 24 Supercharger stalls, mostly empty, and four Electrify America stalls. Two of those four were broken and there was a line to use them. It would have been amazing if I had the option of popping over to use one of the vacant Superchargers!

As stated a million times by now, no one here is really opposed to NACS if that means supercharger access AND Tesla gives up its patents around it and handles the standard over to a 3rd party standards board.

It is when Tesla retains full control over it (different than simply saying “open”) that people don’t feel compelled to switch. There are big risks that Tesla can unilaterally change the specs or otherwise without an absolvement of interest.

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...acs-tesla-charging-standard.15936/post-345944

 

[SASSquatch]

Not only does Elon not control NACS, he didn't even fully define it. He left the V2x "up for other companies to figure out" and even the actual electrical protocol is "just use CCS". Literally the only thing Tesla/Elon defined was the physical shape of the plug/port. At this point, CharIN (the standards body behind CCS) could absolutely just say "NACS is now approved by us as CCS Combo 3, using the CCS protocol over the NACS connector much how CCS Combo 1 uses the CCS protocol over the J1772 connector plus two extra pins." (I really doubt they will, but they could.)

A few refutations of the original point:

1. (Already refuted.)

2. As mentioned above, Tesla/Elon don't control NACS. Elon just released it to the world. Sure, Tesla controls the Supercharger network, but other charge networks can slap a NACS plug on their charging units without paying Elon a dime. (There have already been demo units shown. Yes, they're just current CCS base units with the same bulky cables, and a NACS plug end swapped for the CCS plug, but they exist.) And presumably nothing about the NACS connector would cost any more than CCS to implement.

3. This already happens at CCS charge networks. "It's not our fault, it's your car's." And, again, other charge networks can use NACS without paying Tesla a time, or even consulting with Tesla on anything. Plug-and-charge the way it works for CCS should work just fine on NACS, since NACS uses the same CCS communication protocol just over a different physical plug.

4. Only at Superchargers. The other charge networks aren't going to go away. Hell, I despise Elon Musk, even if my next EV has a NACS port, I will almost certainly never use a Supercharger, as I don't want to pay Elon any money. I'll continue to use RAN for my Rivian (and maybe other vehicles once it opens up,) EA, EVgo, etc. And one would also presume that as Tesla opens up the Supercharger network, they'll have to accommodate other vehicles, and will add longer cables. As for "degraded," NACS supports 800V (see the refutations of #1 already done,) and even Elon said that the Cybertruck will be a 1000V vehicle, so presumably Superchargers will add 800V-architecture charging.

5. Again, not if you don't use the Supercharger network. NACS is now completely independent of Elon; only car companies signing up to make for easier use of the Supercharger network has anything to do with Tesla/Elon.

1) The intent of the first point was to communicate that Elon isn't a fan of 800v architecture nor is he a fan of bi-directional charging. If he doesn't see the value - he has no reasons to implement that architecture on Tesla Superchargers. That doesn't stop other 3rd parties who offer the NACS port from offering it, but here's the thing. He's starting from a position of a monopoly where Tesla owns, operates, and installs 100% of NACS charging, and 3rd parties will take years, maybe a decade, to come close to the number of chargers that Tesla has today. The only realistic game in town will be the Supercharger network.

2.) See my point above.

3/4/5 Until 3rd parties catch up, The Tesla Supercharger network (existing) is the only NACS game in town and it is NOT designed or optimized for non-Tesla vehicles. The charging experience at 3rd party NACS charging stations will be no different than 3rd party CCS charging stations because even if OEMS adopt NACS, they are not adopting Tesla software and so the same issues will apply. You are going to have a shitty user experience using NACS not part of the Tesla Supercharger network and that is by design.

 

[RWerksman]

All those poor Nissan Leaf owners and Chademo. I still see a fair amount of Leafs in my area.

It's like their from a different time.

At the end of the day, I feel like this announcement, while arguably good for Ford and GM, has created a lot of ambiguity and complication for anyone with a stake in EVs in NA. There are some definite concerns with how this is all going to play out.

This feels a lot like HD-DVD and Bluray, but with $50,000 vehicles instead of $500 appliances.

As stated a million times by now, no one here is really opposed to NACS if that means supercharger access AND Tesla gives up its patents around it and handles the standard over to a 3rd party standards board.

It is when Tesla retains full control over it (different than simply saying “open”) that people don’t feel compelled to switch. There are big risks that Tesla can unilaterally change the specs or otherwise without an absolvement of interest.

This is an excellent take, my dude. The only thing that I would add is a truly independent standards board.

 

[SASSquatch]

It's not a perfect experience but it's better than no experience! I have places I'd like to go that I literally can't get to with the current CCS network. If I could use the CCS network and the Tesla network, that would be amazing for me! Most CCS charger companies have announced NACS cable options already too, so no adapter needed!

I was in Hood River a month ago. There were 24 Supercharger stalls, mostly empty, and four Electrify America stalls. Two of those four were broken and there was a line to use them. It would have been amazing if I had the option of popping over to use one of the vacant Superchargers!

Hey, no argument there. The problem is you aren't going to use those superchargers right now without having to cause all sorts of problems blocking other Tesla stalls because you don't have the port in the correct place.

My bigger point is that the existing Supercharger network is a red herring for non-Tesla EV owners. It is being celebrated by Ford and GM as a win for consumers but it will create absolute chaos.

And - I can guarantee you that Tesla owners, all 3 million of them, are NOT HAPPY about opening up this network to every Tom, Dick, and Chevy Bolt.

I look forward to a NACS charging network that is optimized for ALL EV's irrespective of where they have their ports. That won't happen for a very long time since that rollout will take years. There are zero NACS chargers designed for this in the US.

 

[SASSquatch]

It's like their from a different time.

At the end of the day, I feel like this announcement, while arguably good for Ford and GM, has created a lot of ambiguity and complication for anyone with a stake in EVs in NA. There are some definite concerns with how this is all going to play out.

This feels a lot like HD-DVD and Bluray, but with $50,000 vehicles instead of $500 appliances.


This is an excellent take, my dude. The only thing that I would add is a truly independent standards board.

I couldn't agree with you more. Geat take.

And +1 for a truly independent standards board. That should really be the thrust of my argument at this point.

 

[RyanLF]

Hey, no argument there. The problem is you aren't going to use those superchargers right now without having to cause all sorts of problems blocking other Tesla stalls because you don't have the port in the correct place.

My bigger point is that the existing Supercharger network is a red herring for non-Tesla EV owners. It is being celebrated by Ford and GM as a win for consumers but it will create absolute chaos.

And - I can guarantee you that Tesla owners, all 3 million of them, are NOT HAPPY about opening up this network to every Tom, Dick, and Chevy Bolt.

I look forward to a NACS charging network that is optimized for ALL EV's irrespective of where they have their ports. That won't happen for a very long time since that rollout will take years. There are zero NACS chargers design for this in the US.

I think this is pretty region dependent. Where I go, most Tesla Superchargers are pretty empty. Taking up two stalls for 20 minutes wouldn't be an issue! All the Tesla owners I know are super stoked about NACS becoming the standard. It means more money to build more superchargers, and more 3rd party charging options for Tesla without using an adapter!

 

[2025R1S]

You guys are getting lost in the minutia. People here want a few things; a NACS port on their vehicle and access to the Supercharger. The path that we take to get there - and the governing bodies involved or the patents and who owns them - is completely irrelevant to us.

Like Nike - just do it. Just do it, k? We don’t care how, we just know what we want. We want a Rivian, with a NACS port and the ability to charge at a Supercharger. How we get there makes no difference to us. You are hyper focused and making mountains out of ant hills

As stated a million times by now, no one here is really opposed to NACS if that means supercharger access AND Tesla gives up its patents around it and handles the standard over to a 3rd party standards board.

It is when Tesla retains full control over it (different than simply saying “open”) that people don’t feel compelled to switch. There are big risks that Tesla can unilaterally change the specs or otherwise without an absolvement of interest.

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...acs-tesla-charging-standard.15936/post-345944

Same comment for you. Hyper focused on all the things that no one cares much one way or another. We just wants NACS on our R1 models and access to the Supercharger network.

I couldn't agree with you more. Geat take.

And +1 for a truly independent standards board. That should really be the thrust of my argument at this point.

 

[2025R1S]

best of luck to ya, chap. I am sorry you cannot appreciate a charging standard that all Americans can use, including partially disabled persons

It’s clear how myopic you are—don’t try to blame any disability for that. No further point discussing further with a person who can’t see further than a step ahead

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