Munro comparison: Rivian seats vs Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Tesla

[dp351]

It seems like every time they criticize Rivian, it’s for spending too much money and over-building everything with too much quality. I can’t recall them ever saying Rivian built something poorly.

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[COdogman]

That leg rest Hyundai added to the drivers seat is pure genius. Perfect for kicking back while at a charging station.

 

[evhelphub]

Munro should be able to help Rivian reduce unnecessary wields and things of that nature, which should save cost and improve efficiency.

I truly hope these conversations aren't "do you really need USS, radar, windshield wiper sensors, auto high beam sensors, lumbar support, to provide charging cables, 120v in the cabin" etc. The removal of 12v outlets has been a bit sketchy.

Premium products should remain premium and one of Rivian's selling points is that it feels premium and includes all of the above.

Edit to add: He is comparing a $50-60k crossover to a $80-90k truck/three row SUV.

I would like to see a comparison with an e-tron or something else that is in the same price range. Rivian shouldn't be targeting material cost on a product 30-40% less expensive price-wise.

 

[SASSquatch]

Munro should be able to help Rivian reduce unnecessary wields and things of that nature, which should save cost and improve efficiency.

I truly hope these conversations aren't "do you really need USS, radar, windshield wiper sensors, auto high beam sensors, lumbar support, to provide charging cables, 120v in the cabin" etc. The removal of 12v outlets has been a bit sketchy.

Premium products should remain premium and one of Rivian's selling points is that it feels premium and includes all of the above.

Pay the man!

If you strip all of the quality out of the Rivian you end up with Tesla. Not to bash Tesla - they have been critical in enabling mass EV adoption - but their vehicles are not high quality. They are built for keeping costs low. They are NOT premium vehicles.

Here is the catch 22 with Rivian. They need to lower costs and achieve profitability. That is absolutely necessary for them to survive as a company. But Dear Sandy - they should NOT do that by stripping premium materials out of the cabin or of the vehicle!!

They should do it by optimizing their manufacturing, renegotiating terrible supplier agreements, and taking advantage of much more capacity in their factory that they have yet to tap which will lower overall per unit costs.

Sandy's wife Sue LOVES her Rivian R1T. Would she love it as much if it was more Tesla than Rivian? I think not.

 

[COdogman]

 

[dp351]

Pay the man!

If you strip all of the quality out of the Rivian you end up with Tesla. Not to bash Tesla - they have been critical in enabling mass EV adoption - but their vehicles are not high quality. They are built for keeping costs low. They are NOT premium vehicles.

Here is the catch 22 with Rivian. They need to lower costs and achieve profitability. That is absolutely necessary for them to survive as a company. But Dear Sandy - they should NOT do that by stripping premium materials out of the cabin or of the vehicle!!

They should do it by optimizing their manufacturing, renegotiating terrible supplier agreements, and taking advantage of much more capacity in their factory that they have yet to tap which will lower overall per unit costs.

Sandy's wife Sue LOVES her Rivian R1T. Would she love it as much if it was more Tesla than Rivian? I think not.

I agree completely. But what about for the R2, which is supposed to be lower cost? It seems like that’s the right place to sacrifice some level of quality & apply all of this cost saving.

 

[Zoidz]

Munro should be able to help Rivian reduce unnecessary wields and things of that nature, which should save cost and improve efficiency.

I truly hope these conversations aren't "do you really need USS, radar, windshield wiper sensors, auto high beam sensors, lumbar support, to provide charging cables, 120v in the cabin" etc. The removal of 12v outlets has been a bit sketchy.

Premium products should remain premium and one of Rivian's selling points is that it feels premium and includes all of the above.

Edit to add: He is comparing a $50-60k crossover to a $80-90k truck/three row SUV.

I would like to see a comparison with an e-tron or something else that is in the same price range. Rivian shouldn't be targeting material cost on a product 30-50% less expensive price-wise.

Removal of the 12 volt outlets annoys me more than any of the other changes. There are a gazillion car accessories that use 12 volt outlets and they saved maybe $10 - $20. What the hell are they thinking? There was a Rivian comment that it was a supplier constraint issue. OK, but these things are widely available. Find another supplier and let me do a self install after the fact, sheesh.

 

[DuoRivians]

Removal of the 12 volt outlets annoys me more than any of the other changes. There are a gazillion car accessories that use 12 volt outlets and they saved maybe $10 - $20. What the hell are they thinking? There was a Rivian comment that it was a supplier constraint issue. OK, but these things are widely available. Find another supplier and let me do a self install after the fact, sheesh.

They didn’t have enough parts for the current builds, so they spread them out over more cars today. It doesn’t mean they’re gone completely in the future though

 

[Autolycus]

I agree completely. But what about for the R2, which is supposed to be lower cost? It seems like that’s the right place to sacrifice some level of quality & apply all of this cost saving.

Absolutely! The R2's seat should be much simpler. I would expect it to drop the metal trim piece and look much more like a typical seat for a Jeep, Bronco, etc.

It will be interesting if they include heated seats in the base trim. I wouldn't expect vented seats in the base trim, and maybe not even in the higher trim(s).

 

[Zoidz]

After watching the video I have mixed feelings, as I know others do about the Munroe team. I respect everything he said, but to me it was myopic in the bigger picture and way too focus on cost at the expense of brand value and manufacturing capacity. He didn't go into the possible reasons that the Rivian seat is different, overbuilt, labor vs material cost, etc. If you are going to call Rivian out about the things you do know, you also need to acknowlege the things you don't know that may have led to Rivian's choices:

- First and foremost, brand image luxury. I don't want an Ionic seat in my Rivian. Rivian wanted to have a unique design. You can't make a unique seat design if you don't change something! This is specific to the seat back assembly comments he made. Two mounting holes are not used and they used two different snaps. If they needed to do that to make a unique product, so what? The Rivian seat is visually so much better than the Ioniq seat.

- Startup design costs - There's little doubt that at the time the seats were being designed, to save startup costs, Rivian worked with Hyundai to select existing Hyundai sub-assemblies, as opposed to custom designing and fabricating the entire seat. Rivian saved hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, by doing that. Stamping machines did not need to be built, safety testing could be reduced, etc. Pay a lot less up front, pay a fraction more for each seat later.

- Startup company/volume - I'm guessing some of the design was cost compromised due to Rivian being a startup and the relatively low production volume of the seats. It would not surprise me at all if Hyundai said "we can't do this, we can't do that..." because production volume was not high enough. Hyundai certainly dictated a lot of the seat design and fabrication based on their factory capabilities, available capacity, etc. It's entirely possible that hog rings were used not at Rivian's request, but rather because Hyundai told them "that's the way we have to do it because...."

Informative video, yes, but one sided.

 

[Hillbilly]

Would help if he would pronounce Hyundai correctly and not like some bastardized form of Honda.

 

[SoCal Rob]

Removal of the 12 volt outlets annoys me more than any of the other changes. There are a gazillion car accessories that use 12 volt outlets and they saved maybe $10 - $20. What the hell are they thinking? There was a Rivian comment that it was a supplier constraint issue. OK, but these things are widely available. Find another supplier and let me do a self install after the fact, sheesh.

Exactly! I also get the supplier constraint issue.

What I don’t understand is why they made a new piece of trim to preclude the easy addition later. They could’ve gotten a blanking plate and stuck with the original pieces for the frunk tub and the under-dash trim with provision for 12v outlets. Then Rivian could sell a kit later on to add one or both. Charge more for it with the statement that it won’t affect warranty coverage of wiring as a genuine Rivian part.

I don’t think anyone would complain about blanking plates in those two locations and, as an added bonus, they wouldn’t have to stock two versions of parts for repairs or replacement: one with a 12v outlet cutout and another without.

 

[Dark-Fx]

Removal of the 12 volt outlets annoys me more than any of the other changes. There are a gazillion car accessories that use 12 volt outlets and they saved maybe $10 - $20. What the hell are they thinking? There was a Rivian comment that it was a supplier constraint issue. OK, but these things are widely available. Find another supplier and let me do a self install after the fact, sheesh.

You've never had to run your own 12V power for an accessory device before? It's all part of the adventure

 

[SoCal Rob]

After watching the video I have mixed feelings, as I know others do about the Munroe team. I respect everything he said, but to me it was myopic in the bigger picture and way too focus on cost at the expense of brand value and manufacturing capacity. He didn't go into the possible reasons that the Rivian seat is different, overbuilt, labor vs material cost, etc. If you are going to call Rivian out about the things you do know, you also need to acknowlege the things you don't know that may have led to Rivian's choices:

- First and foremost, brand image luxury. I don't want an Ionic seat in my Rivian. Rivian wanted to have a unique design. You can't make a unique seat design if you don't change something! This is specific to the seat back assembly comments he made. Two mounting holes are not used and they used two different snaps. If they needed to do that to make a unique product, so what? The Rivian seat is visually so much better than the Ioniq seat.

- Startup design costs - There's little doubt that at the time the seats were being designed, to save startup costs, Rivian worked with Hyundai to select existing Hyundai sub-assemblies, as opposed to custom designing and fabricating the entire seat. Rivian saved hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, by doing that. Stamping machines did not need to be built, safety testing could be reduced, etc. Pay a lot less up front, pay a fraction more for each seat later.

- Startup company/volume - I'm guessing some of the design was cost compromised due to Rivian being a startup and the relatively low production volume of the seats. It would not surprise me at all if Hyundai said "we can't do this, we can't do that..." because production volume was not high enough. Hyundai certainly dictated a lot of the seat design and fabrication based on their factory capabilities, available capacity, etc. It's entirely possible that hog rings were used not at Rivian's request, but rather because Hyundai told them "that's the way we have to do it because...."

Informative video, yes, but one sided.

Munro & Associates seem to be focused on cost over value. Even so, I would rather have seen a comparison of the Genesis GV60 seats with the Rivian seats. As a higher-end product, I suspect the Genesis version is closer to Rivian and also more expensive to make than the Hyundai version, at least for the portions which the occupants see and touch.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

Here is the catch 22 with Rivian. They need to lower costs and achieve profitability. That is absolutely necessary for them to survive as a company. But Dear Sandy - they should NOT do that by stripping premium materials out of the cabin or of the vehicle!!

Having watched that Marques Brownlee podcast featuring RJ, I think he is keenly aware of the fine line between cost reduction and owner experience... and that it should not be crossed.

If you look at the R1's evolution thus far... while some features have been walked back or removed... the truck itself is still fundamentally well above average and immensely satisfying to most owners (except for the unlucky few and those who just can't be pleased).

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