who cares about privacy?

[Temerarius]

Have a cell phone, credit card, and the internet?

If so we already know everything about you... and you aren't that interesting as an individual.

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[ironpig]

Who cares about privacy?

First, to the extent that one can be a fan of a vehicle that one has never seen in person, I am a fan of the Rivian vehicles. The R1S is, in many ways, the vehicle I have been waiting to own for a long time.

However, Rivian’s approach to privacy is alarming at best.

Rivian collects a lot of data on its vehicle and the owner, see:
https://rivian.com/legal/privacy

I find this privacy policy invasive, and in conjunction with the title, “Rivian is committed to respecting your privacy”, there is a depressingly strong whiff of Orwellian doublespeak. The title would imply the privacy policy describes the many ways that Rivian respects and protects your privacy. Instead, the policy describes all the information they are collecting, and the fact that they will do whatever the heck they want with it. “Respect”, right.

Currently there is no opt out from RIvian’s data collection.

Compare this with Rivian’s peers, other EV-only companies: Telsa and Lucid.

Tesla’s privacy policy is here:
https://www.tesla.com/legal/privacy
Tesla says that a lot of data is processed on vehicle, and user consent is required for data sharing.

And Lucid’s here:
https://www.lucidmotors.com/legal#vehicle-data-privacy-policy
Lucid allows users to opt out of data collection at the expense of functionality. That’s fine. The lost functionality is stuff I don’t need anyway, and I appreciate the fact they give owners a choice.

Based on these policy descriptions, I much prefer Tesla and Lucid policies to Rivian’s.

I know data collection is rampant in this day and age through computers and phones. I do what I can to prevent this data collection, and I advocate for policies to put a stop to consumer data collection.

I’m curious why this isn’t a more important topic for other people. Why don’t you care that Rivian will track everywhere you go in the vehicle, how you drive, whether or not you have a passenger, and (given the presence of a microphone and Alexa) listen to everything that goes on in the car, and perhaps most creepily, watch you while you drive? This seems like such a massive invasion of privacy.

I appreciate different people have different perspectives. I also appreciate when as a consumer I get a choice in the matter.

I’d feel better if Rivian at least anonymized the data they collect.

I was all-in on Rivian until they posted their privacy policy, and now they seem like all the other companies that do things that once were considered stalking and be cause for imprisonment. Just because "other companies do it", doesn't mean it's right.

I do like Rivian’s vehicles, I just want them to revise their data collection policy to include an opt out, and/or anonymization.

I agree with you that I would prefer that the truck didn't have Alexa and that the data was anonymized. I will still be following through on my R1T order regardless.

I am not "all in" on any company or brand. They all have tradeoffs. I currently drive a Tesla despite hating many things about the companies practices. I would rather drive a Rivian even under the current privacy agreement than drive another Tesla.

 

[photontorque]

Apparently these people

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/privacy-policy.2284/

Yes, good point! I neglected to given a shout out to folks who have resonated with this idea in the past, so a thanks to @R_1_T , @PastyPilgrim , @Zool , @Speedrye , and @AxelR for their previous discussion on this topic.

And thanks to you all for your responses to this thread, too. Though the absence of privacy in "privacy policies" these days is commonplace, it shouldn't be, and I encourage everyone to actually read privacy policies and see if any part of it makes you uncomfortable. If it does, say something!

 

[photontorque]

You're not wrong to be concerned about privacy, in general. As you intimated, however, privacy is something of an illusion in the modern world. Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Verizon, AT&T, basically every website you visit (they all use cookies)...they all represent significant data mining operations, with you as the "target." For the most part this profiling of you is pretty harmless - they're trying to figure out what you like and would be willing to buy, so that they can target you with appropriate buying opportunities. Rivian (and Tesla, and Lucid) are all doing much the same. They are trying to figure out how to better monetize their relationship with you (although it is also true that Rivian, Tesla and Lucid are trying to use that data to improve their product performance and user experience). Unfortunately, unless you're willing to disconnect from the social fabric, and forego all the good things the Internet brings you, you're going to have to live with some privacy invasion. It's not really practical to be both Internet-connected and fully anonymized. If fully anonymized is your goal, then Rivian is probably not the vehicle for you (nor is Tesla or Lucid, really). I think the most important question to ask yourself is: What data that Rivian collects are in some way harmful or threatening to you, your family or your interests? If the data collection doesn't really represent a threat - if it just creeps you out that people are collecting data about you and analyzing it - then you might want to characterize this problem as a low-impact issue that you can live with, and stop stressing about it. If you perceive it as a real problem, then you're going to have a tough time living in an Internet-connected world. That sucks, but it's true.

Very thoughtful response, thank you.

I appreciate that in a very practical sense total privacy with the internet, and now the internet of things that is expanding to vehicles, is hard to achieve. However, I think there is a happy medium, and right now companies are running unchecked into the far end of the spectrum that can be very good for them but very bad for consumers.

That's why I want to have Rivian think about its options before it goes too far down the evil path. Does the company really need all this deeply personal information to improve its product? Or can it focus on telemetry and anonymize the source?

 

[photontorque]

Welcome to 1984 … errr I mean 2022. There is no privacy. Everything you do and say is being collected, processed and monitized.

Ha! Yeah, I get really creeped out by just how much things do seem like 1984 these days. Life imitating art . . .

The doublespeak of Rivian is just one of many examples, but I feel it can still be helpful to point it out when it occurs. Their "respect privacy" statement is just flat out duplicitous when you read what they actually do. That, in conjunction with this carefully cultivated "save the planet" vibe just strikes me as a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Speculation on my part, though I expect the investment from Amazon has something to do with their privacy policy. Rivian announced they are using Amazon for data analytics (surprise), so the line isn't hard to draw.

 

[photontorque]

I'm not the type of person that thinks the government, Rivian, my cell carrier, Meta, or Bill Gates care enough to actually watch what I do. I'm not that important and my life isn't that interesting. Adding an R1T that captures my driving habits and in-cab conversations is hardly concerning to me. If it was, I'd throw all of my connected gadgets in a river and walk into the woods somewhere.

I'm a data point, collect my data and use it to make money, whoopie.

Ha!

But sell yourself short! I'm sure you're a fascinating person with plenty of unique skills.

Also, keep in mind that all of this personally identifiable information can be used for identify theft. I have colleagues and acquaintances who have suffered identity theft and IT. IS. AWFUL. Your credit score tanks, you might lose access to accounts, and it can take literally years to recover. Planning easy access to a car loan to buy your Rivian? If you suffer identify theft, that might be years away and a lot of your valuable time spent to sort everything out.

If Rivian, and other companies, collect all this information that puts you at risk, they should be responsible if a bad actor accesses that information from Rivian and causes you harm. Rivian didn't have to collect that information in the first place.

 

[Tim-in-CA]

Very thoughtful response, thank you.

I appreciate that in a very practical sense total privacy with the internet, and now the internet of things that is expanding to vehicles, is hard to achieve. However, I think there is a happy medium, and right now companies are running unchecked into the far end of the spectrum that can be very good for them but very bad for consumers.

That's why I want to have Rivian think about its options before it goes too far down the evil path. Does the company really need all this deeply personal information to improve its product? Or can it focus on telemetry and anonymize the source?

Unfortunately in this day and age YOU are the product!

 

[photontorque]

I think OP is right to be concerned. Flippant dismissal of privacy's importance is naïve and unhelpful fatalism. There is no "point of no return." There is no worst, there is always just worse.

A lot of you might be very surprised at how your data can be used against you. Ever applied for some form of credit? Applied for a job? Mortgage?

Also remember advertising isnt just about selling products, some of it is used to target political propaganda. Think how shady PR firms could use this to influence just enough of the right people that "clean coal" is the future (exaggerated example). Small nudges of influence can be surprisingly effective when applied at population scale.

If anyone is in CA though, we can get more info about who they are sharing with. Please take a moment to contact them.

Yes, yes, and yes. There is always, always worse.

I'm in technology, so I'm a fan of technology, but I know that technology is almost always a two sided sword. And the part of the sword that cuts the wrong way with unfettered personal data collection is the erosion of all sorts of personal rights and risk to the consumer. There are many thoughtful essays on this topic.

That's why I think it's worth speaking up about this.

Cigarette companies fought tooth and nail for years to keep the truth about the harm their product causes from coming to light, but dedicated truth-sayers prevailed.

 

[photontorque]

Have a cell phone, credit card, and the internet?

If so we already know everything about you... and you aren't that interesting as an individual.

Oh dear -- no claims about being interesting here. It's just the principle of data collection to which I object.

Plus, given that I'm not interesting, then Rivian (and other companies) should give me and other uninteresting people the option to opt out of data collection.

 

[FutureTruck]

As long as I can disable Alexa, I'm good. If it even has Alexa, I'm not really sure, I just assume it does because....Amazon. Otherwise, I really don't care if they take my driving habits are put it some giant database. It won't be too long before we aren't even driving anymore, and it won't matter. You'll tell your vehicle a destination which will go straight to the cloud...there's no getting away from it unless you drive an 80's Land Cruiser or ride a bike.

 

[Temerarius]

I do wonder how any PII (Personal Identification Information) will be handled in general, but especially in the EU where GDPR and the like rule the land.

 

[r1t_kev]

That's why I want to have Rivian think about its options before it goes too far down the evil path. Does the company really need all this deeply personal information to improve its product? Or can it focus on telemetry and anonymize the source?

Ok, so I actually read the policy, and I'm now less concerned than I was before. I think you're leaving a lot of context out in order to make the point that data collection is inherently nefarious and Rivian could potentially run roughshod.

I'm not sure what "deeply personal" information they're collecting. Your SSN? If you're financing through them, they need that. Whether or not you have a passenger? The passenger airbag sensor also needs to know that. They're collecting a lot of service related data. For a computer on wheels, which they can remote into for service and send OTA updates to, that seems logical. Cars already record and store service and usage history. They're developing proprietary UI software which includes navigation and assisted driving - seems like they might need location data for that. Alexa is built into the UI and listening to your conversations? Are you afraid Amazon is going to tell your mother-in-law that you didn't like her meatloaf and that you complained about it to your spouse?

I'm being a bit facetious, bordering on obtuse. I understand there are varying levels of comfort with data sharing and I'm not saying that being concerned is invalid. My point is, none of this is new and none of us are data virgins. The conspiratorial slant just seems a little misguided to me.

 

[RideAlong]

vote with your wallet. If Rivian's dataMetrics are problematic for you , simply don't purchase the product.

 

[BoisVert]

Wait, Rivian records and collects your conversations?

 

[r1t_kev]

Wait, Rivian records and collects your conversations?

Sorry - that was part of my post in order to make a point because Alexa is on-board. I don't recall seeing any mention about recording of conversation in the privacy policy.

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