R2 overhead window switches: backwards?

[SoCal Rob]

I tried searching, and didn’t see any discussion about this. Please point me to a different thread if already discussed.

What is the rationale for the overhead window switches, which control the rear window, operating opposite all other window switches in the vehicle, and possibly any vehicle with power windows?

Basically, you move the switch up to make the window(s) move down and you move the switch down to make the window(s) move up. To me, this breaks convention (differs from all other power windows switches I’ve experienced in cars) and is truly counterintuitive, so I assume I’m missing the reasoning behind this.

Sponsored

 

[Dark-Fx]

Not backwards, FMVSS stupidity. Switches are required to open the window from accidental presses. Much more likely to accidentally push the switch in than pull on it.

 

[Laurent]

I recall reading somewhere that RJ had the same reaction and thought it was backwards. But the design team argued that it was consistent with the other switches (press to open, pull to close).

 

[SoCal Rob]

Not backwards, FMVSS stupidity. Switches are required to open the window from accidental presses. Much more likely to accidentally push the switch in than pull on it.

Yes, backwards. Literally: up=down and down=up. Regardless of the rationale, don’t try to gaslight.

I’d like to see the wording that applies this to overhead switches. Assuming it still applies, that rationale makes sense but there are ways around it. Rivian could've added guards to prevent any accidental activation at all.

Making the switches operate backwards from all other power window switches doesn’t seem like a rational way to improve safety across all scenarios. I can see someone closing when they think they’re opening at an inopportune time. Hopefully the auto-reverse would prevent problems, just as it should if the switches behaved consistently and intuitively.

 

[Dark-Fx]

Yes, backwards. Literally: up=down and down=up. Regardless of the rationale, don’t try to gaslight.

I’d like to see the wording that applies this to overhead switches. Assuming it still applies, that rationale makes sense but there are ways around it. Rivian could've added guards to prevent any accidental activation at all.

Making the switches operate backwards from all other power window switches doesn’t seem like a rational way to improve safety across all scenarios. I can see someone closing when they think they’re opening at an inopportune time. Hopefully the auto-reverse would prevent problems, just as it should if the switches behaved consistently and intuitively.

Don't think of moving switches as up or down. Push in to go down, pull on to go up.

 

[Millbarge]

Yes, backwards. Literally: up=down and down=up. Regardless of the rationale, don’t try to gaslight.

I’d like to see the wording that applies this to overhead switches. Assuming it still applies, that rationale makes sense but there are ways around it. Rivian could've added guards to prevent any accidental activation at all.

Making the switches operate backwards from all other power window switches doesn’t seem like a rational way to improve safety across all scenarios. I can see someone closing when they think they’re opening at an inopportune time. Hopefully the auto-reverse would prevent problems, just as it should if the switches behaved consistently and intuitively.

probably federal regs don't differentiate between "overhead" switches and other switches, hence the "backward" application.

 

[Jeremy3292]

It's not backwards. Federal regulations also require it to be the way it is. There's discussions and threads on this already.

PULL = window up
PUSH = window down

It's the same on all windows, the button location is just in a different location which makes you think it's backwards. It's the same way on a 4Runner which has a dropdown window and the same way for sunroofs also. R2 is no different than any other vehicle made.

 

[SoCal Rob]

I recall reading somewhere that RJ had the same reaction and thought it was backwards. But the design team argued that it was consistent with the other switches (press to open, pull to close).

Don't think of moving switches as up or down. Push in to go down, pull on to go up.

It’s hard not to when every interior power window switch I’ve ever seen (hydraulic or electrical) operated in the intuitive fashion: move switch up to make window move up and move switch down to make window move down. Yes, you can learn that it’s different on the overhead switches but that doesn’t make it good design and it won’t be truly intuitive.

 

[emroch]

Yes, backwards. Literally: up=down and down=up. Regardless of the rationale, don’t try to gaslight.

I’d like to see the wording that applies this to overhead switches. Assuming it still applies, that rationale makes sense but there are ways around it. Rivian could've added guards to prevent any accidental activation at all.

Making the switches operate backwards from all other power window switches doesn’t seem like a rational way to improve safety across all scenarios. I can see someone closing when they think they’re opening at an inopportune time. Hopefully the auto-reverse would prevent problems, just as it should if the switches behaved consistently and intuitively.

The federal regulations literally prescribe this behavior. Aside from moving the switch, I'm not sure Rivian had any choice in the matter.

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...-efficiency-and-range-data.60868/post-1042935

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-...1/subpart-B/section-571.118#p-571.118(S6.)(c):

Any actuation device for closing a power-operated window must operate by pulling away from the surface in the vehicle on which the device is mounted. An actuation device for closing a power-operated window must operate only when pulled vertically up (if mounted on the top of a horizontal surface), or out (if mounted on a vertical surface), or down (if mounted on the underside of an overhead surface), or in a direction perpendicular to the surrounding surface if mounted in a sloped orientation, in order to cause the window to move in the closing direction.

 

[emroch]

It’s hard not to when every interior power window switch I’ve ever seen (hydraulic or electrical) operated in the intuitive fashion: move switch up to make window move up and move switch down to make window move down. Yes, you can learn that it’s different on the overhead switches but that doesn’t make it good design and it won’t be truly intuitive.

Every other window switch you've operated is likely on top of a horizontal surface. It is not intuitive, but it is the law. Hence Dark-FX's original "FMVSS stupidity" comment. I think many of us here would flip it if we had the choice, but Rivian did not have the choice.

 

[SoCal Rob]

It's not backwards. Federal regulations also require it to be the way it is. There's discussions and threads on this already.

PULL = window up
PUSH = window down

It's the same on all windows, the button location is just in a different location which makes you think it's backwards.

Yes, it is the definition of backwards: down=up and up=down.

The first 2 lines in my original post were, “I tried searching, and didn’t see any discussion about this. Please point me to a different thread if already discussed.”

If you can point me to the other thread(s) I’d appreciate it.

 

[Millbarge]

It’s hard not to when every interior power window switch I’ve ever seen (hydraulic or electrical) operated in the intuitive fashion: move switch up to make window move up and move switch down to make window move down. Yes, you can learn that it’s different on the overhead switches but that doesn’t make it good design and it won’t be truly intuitive.

It's like the centering turn signal stalk--it will take you 1 week to get used to it, and then it will be 2nd nature. It's not a big deal when you own the car; only when you test drive and you aren't used to it.

 

[SoCal Rob]

Every other window switch you've operated is likely on top of a horizontal surface. It is not intuitive, but it is the law. Hence Dark-FX's original "FMVSS stupidity" comment. I think many of us here would flip it if we had the choice, but Rivian did not have the choice.

As I suggested: guards preventing accidental operation would probably allow traditional operation and also satisfy the regulation.

 

[Dark-Fx]

As I suggested: guards preventing accidental operation would probably allow traditional operation and also satisfy the regulation.

And I'd get to feel like I'm firing missiles or using an ejection seat!

You could probably personally rewire your switch to operate in the other direction if it really bothers you that much.

 

[emroch]

As I suggested: guards preventing accidental operation would probably allow traditional operation and also satisfy the regulation.

The text of the regulation, which I linked to and quoted, does not have an exception clause and does not say that the button must be protected. It very clearly says "An actuation device for closing a power-operated window must operate only when pulled [...] down (if mounted on the underside of an overhead surface) [...] in order to cause the window to move in the closing direction."

Sponsored