privacy. and security.

[photontorque]

The topic of privacy has come up in other threads, I'd like to start a thread specifically to:

1. discuss what privacy policies exist for current EVs. Many of us on this forum have not yet owned an EV, and some of us haven't even bought a new car in over 10 years! What information does, for example, Tesla and Chevy collect? Can you opt out? What do those companies do, if anything, to anonymize and protect user data?

2. discuss the privacy and security policy(ies) for Rivian vehicles.

My perspective is that there has been huge overreach by tech companies in regards to collecting and monetizing personal data, without transparency to consumers about what information is collected without consent, and how companies are making money on that data. Creepy, but evidently not (yet) illegal.

Apple is setting a nice precedent with their privacy policy, to the extent that I understand it. But I still think there's room for improvement, such as the ability to opt out of all data collection.

For a company like Rivian, I understand the importance of telemetry to improve their product. However, when that telemetry is tied to an individual, now you're not just collecting technical data, you're layering in non-technical data unrelated to, e.g. getting real-world data on battery-management systems.

I think Rivian should be explicit about what information they collect, how they collect it, and the ability to opt out. I also think they should anonymize information they collect.

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[skyote]

I'm not a privacy policy expert, but I am a tech guy that has focused on cybersecurity the last number of years. Just a couple points to make:

1) This isn't an EV-specific concern, any modern connected vehicle transmits information about location, vehicle status/health, and possibly driving habits.

2) Any connected & software-driven vehicle is going to have vulnerabilities. There have been interesting vehicle compromises showcased at Blackhat/Defcon in recent years. Only time & testing will show how well Rivian has secured things with their vehicles.

3) The industry has already learned many lessons about vehicle security, and my biggest concern is twofold: 1) Rivian platform has full software access to pretty much all vehicle functions, & 2) third party/Internet/Alexa access to these functions must be done very carefully.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

I'm curious to read the privacy policy once Rivian makes it available.

I'm more concerned with what they share with Amazon and third parties. I'm also concerned with insurance implications. I've never liked the idea of those insurance dongles that record how hard you brake or the times of day you drive.

 

[photontorque]

@CommodoreAmiga - yeah, sharing with Amazon gives me the heebie-jeebies. And with other third parties.

Of course, they can't share what they don't collect in the first place!

@skyote - thanks for your thoughts. I meant to reference the more general nature of these questions by reference to the fact that I haven't bought a new car in over 10 years, but that connection was hardly (read: not at all) obvious.

It just seems like there are fundamental privacy expectations and security capabilities for a vehicle -- whose proper operation literally can mean life or death for ourselves, passengers, pedestrians, etc. -- that need to be clearly articulated and demonstrated. I'm super excited about EVs, I'm super excited about the Rivian EVs, but I won't be super excited about Rivian EVs that (i) treat me like a commodity rather than a customer and a human being, and (ii) have a risk of some bug that executes a tank turn when traveling at highway speeds.

 

[photontorque]

Soooo . . . this:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/4/2...-533-million-leaks-online-email-phone-numbers

And this:


there are many more articles you can find on either topic.

Rivian - what's your plan for privacy and security? How about making that one of the upcoming news releases.

 

[McRat]

I'm happy that civil engineers can now have accurate data of traffic pattern and that if I'm in an accident and unconscious, OnStar will send help.

My cellphone is a serious threat to my privacy, my cars, bikes, and trucks are not in the same ballpark. If you think Apple is owned by Mother Teresa, you are wrong.

 

[davrow_R1T]

Soooo . . . this:
Rivian - what's your plan for privacy and security? How about making that one of the upcoming news releases.

They have so much important stuff to tell us. I really hope they don't waste our time telling us they have 'really good security'. Really, what could they say without compromising the very security you are asking about?

My opinion, of course. Everybody welcome to have a different one.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

They have so much important stuff to tell us. I really hope they don't waste our time telling us they have 'really good security'. Really, what could they say without compromising the very security you are asking about?

My opinion, of course. Everybody welcome to have a different one.

Banks and eCommerce companies tell us what security measures they have in place, in broad strokes. No reason an automotive company can't.

 

[JeremyMKE]

Might be unpopular but the only way in our current capitalist society to stop a company from using your data in a way you don’t like is to not use their products and services.
Corporations in general don’t have a conscience or morality. It’s about the dollar. I’m not saying that’s bad per se but I don’t look to them for those competencies.
There are those companies who will do it well IMO and those who wont.
I don’t love it, but I really don’t have anything to hide. The only way to balance it is with government regulation in my book. We can vote and attempt to influence the government, corporations just have to follow the law and even then they often have the $$$$ to avoid that.

I am not going to take this any farther as I am dangerously close to politics here.

I agree that rivian should make as clear a statement as possible and then we decide with our wallets. The benefits of data analysis and cloud infrastructure outweigh the risks for ME by leaps and bounds. But nothing is free.

 

[McRat]

People use "free" communication services because they are exchanging their personal data for something that they want.

What if Rivian provides you with some perk to allow the use of your driving habits, such as where to locate Rivian DCFC charging sites? Would that be worth it?

 

[Gshenderson]

People use "free" communication services because they are exchanging their personal data for something that they want.

A great quote from the movie The Social Dilemma was “if you are not paying for the product, then YOU are the product.”

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

People use "free" communication services because they are exchanging their personal data for something that they want.

What if Rivian provides you with some perk to allow the use of your driving habits, such as where to locate Rivian DCFC charging sites? Would that be worth it?

As long as they agree NOT to give my data to insurance companies or law enforcement, outside of part of a search warrant.

I really don't like how Amazon is sharing Ring videos with law enforcement, voluntarily, without requiring a warrant.

 

[SANZC02]

As long as they agree NOT to give my data to insurance companies or law enforcement, outside of part of a search warrant.

I really don't like how Amazon is sharing Ring videos with law enforcement, voluntarily, without requiring a warrant.

My take on ring videos is they are outward facing so there should be no expectation of privacy.

I would have an issue if they were sharing video from indoors without a warrant as there is an expectation of privacy when you are not in public.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

My take on ring videos is they are outward facing so there should be no expectation of privacy.

I would have an issue if they were sharing video from indoors without a warrant as there is an expectation of privacy when you are not in public.

Ring sells other cameras that can be used both indoors and outdoors. They can make an educated guess, based on model, where a camera might be used, but I know they are not all being used in the "obvious" way.

 

[Eeyore]

My perspective is that there has been huge overreach by tech companies in regards to collecting and monetizing personal data, without transparency to consumers about what information is collected without consent, and how companies are making money on that data. Creepy, but evidently not (yet) illegal.

Looking directly at Google. They have mastered tracking and data mining to a degree that make me queasy. I feel that same about amazon and alexa. I don't want it enabled in my R1T.

I think Rivian should be explicit about what information they collect, how they collect it, and the ability to opt out. I also think they should anonymize information they collect.

Completely agree with you on this.

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