NACS still a BIG differentiator for Tesla - not what I hoped for

[White Shadow]

What I'm seeing. Right now I would not want a non tesla with a native NACS...... I prefer the native CCS with manufacturer supplied and supported adaptor.

Why though? It works both ways....if you have native NACS, you can always use a CCS adapter for any non-Tesla charging location.

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[TexasBob]

Crazy how emotional this all gets when it comes to Tesla! Reality is that the old V2s were never going to be opened. We always knew that. This has zero to do with Tesla releasing a proprietary communications protocol and everything to do with the fact that it makes no sense for any other OEM to invest time and money in adapting to a protocol Tesla is killing off.

We have seen history with Tesla upgrading and not upgrading v2 sites. The general rule seems to be that they upgrade if there is available and cost effective electric capacity and if there is not then they build a new station nearby. (You can see plenty of evidence on the map if you hunt.) There are some big gaps (e.g. West Texas down I-10) but they will get filled in soon enough.

 

[Dark-Fx]

So, you're saying it's more involved than Tesla simply flipping a switch in the first week of March?

Who would have thunk?

It amazes me how much the peanut gallery wants to sit on their collective butts and heckle the people doing the hard work to improve the EV infrastructure!

It fuckin could be that simple, that's the issue, friend.

 

[Dark-Fx]

That's a bunch of BS. Tesla is more open with their technology and where it's going than any other company out there. But push the narrative that suits your inner hatred.

Tesla already opened all their EV patents to competitors back in 2015 to accelerate electrification.

Then why isn't the protocol open? Jesus you Tesla apologists are morons. Tesla could have been this direct about everything in the beginning but they were not.

 

[jplblue]

I was browsing the Tesla forum on Reddit, and they have some heavy speculation that even the V3 chargers need some type of minor hardware upgrade. It sounds like a lot of the NACS capable stations had to go down for a half-day maintenance recently, and some believe this was the reason.

It’s all pretty speculative to me, but it sounds plausible that maybe a communication module or something would need to be replaced.

My wife has worked indirectly with some of the people responsible for EV charging software. While I don’t know details, it has been described as a much more complex endeavor than the general public gives credit for.

NACS access is a big deal and a big change. But it’s not an overnight silver bullet. It’s something that will evolve and be solved over multiple years.

On the Batteries Included Podcast, Kyle mentions that an upgraded DC meter and CCS comms module are needed before adapters are enabled at Superchargers.

 

[RivianRunner]

That is 100% false. Tesla has sued multiple companies despite their “open source” pledge. Here is one recent example:

https://electrek.co/2023/07/17/tesl...tent-infringement-despite-open-patent-pledge/

The reason more companies did NOT attempt to take advantage of that “pledge” is simple: It’s worded in a way that still leaves the door wide open for Tesla to sue any company for violating it based on the minute to minute mood swings of an overgrown toddler billionaire. So it’s not really a pledge at all, is it?

Any corporate lawyer who allowed their company to use one of Tesla’s “open” patents should be fired immediately. That “pledge” is nothing more than a PR stunt.

No, the case you mention, the other company sued Maxwell (now owned by Tesla) for infringement first (in 2019). Tesla opened their patents to people who don't sue them. In the case where the other company sues first, Tesla needs to defend their rights, no other way around it. They are not going to let people walk all over them!

 

[CharonPDX]

Hum.

I am not sure where you are trying to go with your argument, but large swaths of EV Tech currently being used by everybody is simply cut and paste from Tesla's research, to include Rivian vehicles.

To be sure, we are all better off for it, and Rivian vehicles are better off for it.

Again, evidence? EV research was happening long before Tesla was even a company. Yes, they did many innovative things, and I'm sure they have great patents on lots of their work - but the whole "all our patents are belong to you" was a PR stunt - other companies were doing huge research on EVs, too - they just weren't acting on a lot of it. Much EV tech is patent-encumbered requiring licensing. Tesla didn't avoid suing "out of the goodness of their hearts" - they still enforced the patents they held.

Heck, some of their lack of innovation was due to patents held by other companies that Tesla refused to license. (Blind spot indicator lights in side mirrors, something they just started adding because the patent expired.)

 

[RivianRunner]

Evidence please? Tesla's "all our patents" pledge was hot garbage that no other manufacturer would possibly take them up on, under the facade of "open source". The only company that took them up on *anything* prior to the full "NACS, actually fully released with no caveats" announcement was Aptera. Who, to be blunt, didn't matter. (I say that as a shareholder and reservation-holder. Aptera's embrace wasn't the reason NACS succeeded.)

Tesla has a patent portfolio that is as wide as it is deep and the vast majority of them don't have to do with charging an EV. Tesla's patented technology is widely embedded in the EV fleet, and they are not suing the companies who have deployed it in their own fleets, but I don't have the time to start pulling up examples. You will have to do your own research if you don't want to take that at face value.

Any lawsuit in this arena would likely be disputed and end up in a multi-year legal dispute with a settlement before the Patent Court reached a verdict. These kinds of trials are exactly what Elon Musk was avoiding when he opened Tesla's patent portfolio up to "fair use". It was a very smart move for Tesla and for the industry. People should be grateful and realize how helpful this has been instead of calling it a "PR stunt".

 

[RivianRunner]

It fuckin could be that simple, that's the issue, friend.

That's naive. Making the Supercharger Network compatible with all other brands involves millions of dollars' worth of hardware and software upgrades. The billing issues alone would bring a less capable company to its knees. Anyone who thinks it was just a matter of flipping a switch in the first week of March is naive.

You should be grateful it's happening so quickly. Look at the CCS networks, they are still flakey, often slow and undependable, many years after initial deployments. What a farce!

 

[RivianRunner]

On the Batteries Included Podcast, Kyle mentions that an upgraded DC meter and CCS comms module are needed before adapters are enabled at Superchargers.

Oh, come on, you expect me to believe Kyle? I heard all it required was the flipping of a switch.

 

[COdogman]

No, the case you mention, the other company sued Maxwell (now owned by Tesla) for infringement first (in 2019). Tesla opened their patents to people who don't sue them. In the case where the other company sues first, Tesla needs to defend their rights, no other way around it. They are not going to let people walk all over them!

Really? Where does it say that in "the pledge"?

The problem I am highlighting is the pledge is so vague it is useless. It is also underhanded in other ways that IP lawyers have pointed out:

WHAT DOES TESLA’S PATENT PLEDGE MEAN?
Tesla is essentially asking companies to give up rights to assert any IP right against Tesla. This presumably includes trademarks, copyrights and patents. This allows Tesla to use the IP of these participating companies without fear of litigation.

Moreover, the companies are also required to adopt their own patent pledge to others for the use of EV technology. Effectively, parties that want to take advantage of the Tesla pledge are being asked by Tesla to expose its IP cards to get a seat at the EV table—a showdown against the industry leader and all third-party competitors.

Unsurprisingly, many EV space participants have been hesitant of using Tesla’s patents. It appears that patent pledges of this nature intend to encourage innovation and participation in the industry. Yet, it also underscores the importance of intellectual property as Tesla continues to invest in patents and leverage them to dissuade others from enforcing their own rights.

https://www.caglaw.com/2019/10/18/teslas-patent-pledge-using-open-source-bait-to-gain-ip-leverage/

 

[seatosummit]

I'm curious about the "DC meter and CCS module" that Kyle mentions.

When the network launched last week, only one of the San Luis Obispo SCs was open to Ford. Looking today, another has since opened.

Looking at PlugShare, there is no mention of any down time in the last few days, so I wonder if there is in fact a hardware component that needs to be installed, or if this is rather something they are just staging in software; progressively open more sites as they gain more confidence. Though hard to imagine they would gain much confidence in four days with only a handful of influencers having the adapter for their For vehicles...

 

[Q-ship]

Not until the V2s are replaced with V4s (or higher). That could take a while because Tesla is trying to build out the charging infrastructure in a capital efficient manner, not waste hundreds of billions of dollars like VW did with Electrify America. The amount wasted was cringeworthy compared to what Tesla did with the Supercharger Network. Tesla won't replace V2s until they have outlived their usefulness.

There are still a lot of V2 only stations in the Intermountain west. Many of these are in sparsely populated areas. I have used most of these stations at one time or another, and if you don’t have to share, 150 kW is plenty, particularly if you have a small battery like in the 3/Y. I don’t think these stations are high on Tesla‘s priority list to upgrade.

 

[Supratachophobia]

I was browsing the Tesla forum on Reddit, and they have some heavy speculation that even the V3 chargers need some type of minor hardware upgrade. It sounds like a lot of the NACS capable stations had to go down for a half-day maintenance recently, and some believe this was the reason.

It’s all pretty speculative to me, but it sounds plausible that maybe a communication module or something would need to be replaced.

My wife has worked indirectly with some of the people responsible for EV charging software. While I don’t know details, it has been described as a much more complex endeavor than the general public gives credit for.

NACS access is a big deal and a big change. But it’s not an overnight silver bullet. It’s something that will evolve and be solved over multiple years.

They do, I was taking to a supercharger tech who just finished with some type of part swap out on a v3.

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