Gen 1.5 NACS Charging Dispenser Technical Specs (RAN Charger)

[mikehmb]

So, my neighbor in Kona (another EV guy) was going to approach me about buying and running an L3 fast charging station on island. We’re both part time island residents with primary residences on the mainland.

Anyway, while not Rivian specific, the math on these L3’s don’t make much sense - without government subsidies, which IMO the government should be facilitating for infrastructure development (but becomes a loaded political issue).

Regardless, the cost of the unit my neighbor found was about $95K, but with government incentives, it was less than half that. But, one still needed to pay for a maintenance and repair plan, which was about $10-$15K annually.

i don’t see how people make money off these - even with government incentives.

All I really want to say (without making this a political statement) is that knowing the potential cost, I personally don’t complain about L3 charging station prices. The more the better and if someone is going to install one, by all means try to make some money off it. Also, for an emerging technology and infrastructure, IMO government incentives are badly needed.

I've always wondered how the economics of this would work out, so back of the napkin here:
Cost of electricity is about $0.40/kWh for high-use business (I'm sure there are discounts especially for EV use, just don't know how much)
Charging $0.55/kWh seems reasonable on the island, so $0.15 gross per kWh
Assuming 20% average utilization (that seems high over a 24 hour period?), and 125kW output avg per session ... 600Kwh per day, x365, x $0.15, is about $33k Gross annual, which doesn't take into account maintenance and initial acquisition costs, not to mention land use.

Really, really hard to make this profitable unless you can negotiate land-use rights (or own big chunks of land), and control costs of the dispensers (eg. vertically-integrated service).

Would love to hear how you and your friend progress if you decide to really dig into the #s.

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[therealcmj]

I assume you need to use house power. So somebody has to pay someone back. One box won't be enough for ten vehicles but it is a place to start so consider where future ones will go.
. . .
If the HOA doesn't have a budget line item in the reserve, then someone will have to commit for maintenance and maybe just reimburse the HOA for power from the funds.

This is a big subject with a lot of “and”. And it’s not really relevant to the thread.

But short version is yes, 100%. There’s already a plan underway to install distribution points to support about 100 EVSEs spread throughout the garage on shared circuits. In the end state there will be an EVSE close enough to every spot so everyone will have the ability to charge in the spot they own at least once every few days. But that’s been slowly working its way through the grant and permitting process for 2+ years already with no end in sight.

I like to be prepared so we started looking and found that Chargepoint, AmpUP and most other vendors want $10-20 per port per month; they have you pay the credit card processing fees and mark up the electricity to cover that cost. Tesla is similar and will handle the billing at 1c per kWh markup. The former is too expensive to entertain at scale and the latter would cause a literal riot by 1/3 of the parking spot owners. And both are long term commitment's to a single vendor with huge switching costs.

So I found a couple of other options that allow us to authenticate users, collect usage, and charge people back on their HOA condo fee account at the end of the month.

The 10 EV owners bought their cars knowing they can’t charge here and already charge elsewhere. So this is a stopgap plus a way to trial a couple of level 2 vendors.

 

[CharonPDX]

The operating temperature is a bit of a miss.

Environmental

• Operational Altitude: 7000 ft
• Operating Temperature: –20°C to 40°C
• Storage Temperature: –40°C to 80°C
• Operating Humidity: 0–100%

See the outofspec video from @OutofSpecKyle during a cold snap in Colorado a couple years back of - 20c down to - 40c. Almost every dispenser DCFC failed to initialize due to what seemed to be a cable cooling initiation issue, stopping the initialization process.

RIVIAN RAN chargers weren't tested, but I would assume similar results.

And parts of the country, 40°C wouldn't be enough, either. That's only 104°F. I've seen it hotter than that in Phoenix in *October* after sunset!

Hell, one trip to visit family in Tucson, there was a period of a few days where the overnight low was above 100°F.

 

[MountainBikeDude]

And parts of the country, 40°C wouldn't be enough, either. That's only 104°F. I've seen it hotter than that in Phoenix in *October* after sunset!

Hell, one trip to visit family in Tucson, there was a period of a few days where the overnight low was above 100°F.

I have to assume that the units can still operate above and below those limits, but at derated output capability.

 

[DCFC]

I have to assume that the units can still operate above and below those limits, but at derated output capability.

They absolutely do. And already have operated at much higher temps since they have been deployed.

Edit: I did a quick look on plugshare and the RAN site in Wickenburg, AZ near Phoenix has been online since at least April. Its definitely gotten hotter than 40C there over the summer.

 

[MountainBikeDude]

They absolutely do. And already have operated at much higher temps since they have been deployed.

Edit: I did a quick look on plugshare and the RAN site in Wickenburg, AZ near Phoenix has been online since at least April. Its definitely gotten hotter than 40C there over the summer.

Was watching the usual, an outofspec video... But on the new Tesla V4 cabinets finally rolling out and paired with V4 dispensers. Those have a nominal operating range to - 40c. Impressive, but I think the only vehicle that fully takes advantage is the Semi. Cybertruck hit a 500kW peak with a recent update, but only bottom SOC, and only for about 10 seconds.

 

[azbill]

They absolutely do. And already have operated at much higher temps since they have been deployed.

Edit: I did a quick look on plugshare and the RAN site in Wickenburg, AZ near Phoenix has been online since at least April. Its definitely gotten hotter than 40C there over the summer.

It is not that chargers do not work in those temps, it is that they derate quickly. I have a lot of experience with Tesla chargers derating when above 90F, but under the same conditions EA chargers do not derate. The RAN in Wickenburg is CCS, not NACS. I used it once in April jsut to try it with my non-Rivian.

 

[DCFC]

It is not that chargers do not work in those temps, it is that they derate quickly. I have a lot of experience with Tesla chargers derating when above 90F, but under the same conditions EA chargers do not derate. The RAN in Wickenburg is CCS, not NACS. I used it once in April jsut to try it with my non-Rivian.

Yes, I said they would derate in post #15 I didn't catch this was NACS specific though, so thanks for clarifying that.

That said, the supplier of the NACS cable is the same as the CCS cable on RAN. I would not expect any significant difference in thermal performance on RAN between the two.

 

[HaveBlue]

This is a big subject with a lot of “and”. And it’s not really relevant to the thread.

But short version is yes, 100%. There’s already a plan underway to install distribution points to support about 100 EVSEs spread throughout the garage on shared circuits. In the end state there will be an EVSE close enough to every spot so everyone will have the ability to charge in the spot they own at least once every few days. But that’s been slowly working its way through the grant and permitting process for 2+ years already with no end in sight.

I like to be prepared so we started looking and found that Chargepoint, AmpUP and most other vendors want $10-20 per port per month; they have you pay the credit card processing fees and mark up the electricity to cover that cost. Tesla is similar and will handle the billing at 1c per kWh markup. The former is too expensive to entertain at scale and the latter would cause a literal riot by 1/3 of the parking spot owners. And both are long term commitment's to a single vendor with huge switching costs.

So I found a couple of other options that allow us to authenticate users, collect usage, and charge people back on their HOA condo fee account at the end of the month.

The 10 EV owners bought their cars knowing they can’t charge here and already charge elsewhere. So this is a stopgap plus a way to trial a couple of level 2 vendors.

Tesla has a minimum number of stations before they take you as a commercial customer. I looked into several providers but Autel was basically free in comparison to companies like charge point. Sounds like wall box is similar. Hope you get it done!

 

[KRIV_ian]

AZbill, just a correction regarding the RAN in Wickenburg, the site has 4 x CCS and 2 x NACS dispensers. I used it this week, so it must have been updated since you charged there. I plugged in to the CCS and got the fastest charge rate (219.9 kW) I’ve ever had, especially as I plugged in at 49% SOC.

 

[sunydrm]

Tesla supercharger rating is -30-50C

I don't know if that is much different than Rivian here or they are just claiming higher numbers

What is the point of building your own charging network anyways? Other than tesla supercharger network, I'm not sure any other networks are profitable. It seems like a money pit.

ionna is cool because it is joint funded by a bunch of automakers. What makes the charging network work is scale. If you have scale, you can do things like demand free leases like tesla does.

 

[pc500]

Tesla has a minimum number of stations before they take you as a commercial customer. I looked into several providers but Autel was basically free in comparison to companies like charge point. Sounds like wall box is similar. Hope you get it done!

Tesla requires 6, but the hardware is very cheap and a commodity to replace, and with their power sharing feature you can easily hook them all to a single 48 or 80 amp circuit and for typical apartment charging scenarios where people hog a spot, it saves your real cost -- electrical work.

 

[HaveBlue]

Tesla requires 6, but the hardware is very cheap and a commodity to replace, and with their power sharing feature you can easily hook them all to a single 48 or 80 amp circuit and for typical apartment charging scenarios where people hog a spot, it saves your real cost -- electrical work.

Yes Autel does load sharing as well. All these details are important gotchas.

Insurance is another thing that could come up. The HOA won't want to insure it. Homeowners insurance won't cover it because it's in the common area. California just passed a law about this limiting hoa's ability to ban them.

 

[HaveBlue]

Yes, I said they would derate in post #15 I didn't catch this was NACS specific though, so thanks for clarifying that.

That said, the supplier of the NACS cable is the same as the CCS cable on RAN. I would not expect any significant difference in thermal performance on RAN between the two.

Looks like Rivian has switched on 900v on its existing CCS stations. This one is in CO West of Denver.

 

[pc500]

Now all we need is a 800V R1T

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