FUTURE CHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE: What to expect. Great info for new EV owners.

[Lil'O Annie]

This was a really good discussion of the future of EV charging (6/27/21). If the Rivian will be your first experience with EV charging, this may give you a good idea of what you will be dealing with on road trips. If you already own an EV and travel very much, you will benefit from the ideas discussed about future ideas for dealing with what will be a huge demand.

Personally, I currently do 98% of my charging at home, but that will change when I get my R1T. We hope to travel a lot more, so will be more dependent on DCFC.

Hope this info helps some of you to better understand what you are getting into with an EV. It's a different mindset than a "fill up the tank" when you stop in an ICE. There is a learning curve involved and don't think of stopping and "filling" the battery full every time you stop.

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[ajdelange]

The concept is great for say a country store where only a couple of cars come by to charge a day. But there are limitations as to how many cars can be charged. If on a 20 kW feeder the most that can be taken from it in a day is 20*24 = 480 kWh. If max R1T's charge from this station it can only provide 20*24/180 = 2.7 full charges per day. And they have to be spaced out. If I take half the battery out and another guy comes along behind me and takes the other half then the station has to charge me from the mains at 20 kW. Twice what I'd get at home but still essentially Level 2 rates.

While the basic concept of a buffer battery is good there is quite a bit of snake oil here. Also note that "fast" to this man is 150 kW. That's not fast to the Rivians which will take 300 at first and eventually 350.

 

[Lil'O Annie]

The concept is great for say a country store where only a couple of cars come by to charge a day. But there are limitations as to how many cars can be charged. If on a 20 kW feeder the most that can be taken from it in a day os 20*24 = 480 kWh. If max R1T's charge from this station it can only provide 20*24/180 = 2.7 full charges per day. And they have to be spaced out. If I take half the battery out and another guy comes along behind me and takes the other half then the station has to charge me from the mains at 20 kW. Twice what I'd get at home but still essentially Level 2 rates.

While the basic concept of a buffer battery is good there is quite a bit of snake oil here. Also note that "fast" to this man is 150 kW. That's not fast to the Rivians which will take 300 at first and eventually 350.

They do talk about this and seeing the concept can charge up to 20 vehicles per day. I wondered the very same thing as a limitation, though.

 

[DucRider]

That's not fast to the Rivians which will take 300 at first and eventually 350.

Just to clarify before folks start assuming these are the numbers from Rivian - They will take 200kW+ at first and eventually 300.

 

[ajdelange]

That was from memory - admittedly not always a reliable source. I think I remember someone being interviewed about the 400/800 V thing saying that they were doing 800V but that it would only be capable of 300 kW at first. I won't swear to it though. Right now the web site says "up to 140 miles in 20 minutes". That's a rate of 420 miles per hour which at an assumed rated rate of 0.450 kWh/mi is 189 kW. The point of the comment was that 150 kW is the equivalent of the Tesla V2 chargers. The V3s are 250 and the EAs are 350. One fifty is not fast by today's standards,

 

[SeaGeo]

Just to clarify before folks start assuming these are the numbers from Rivian - They will take 200kW+ at first and eventually 300.

And I actually haven't seen confirmation from Rivian that the R1 series will get to 300. At least to the point that I'm comfortable betting on it.

 

[azbill]

The concept is great for say a country store where only a couple of cars come by to charge a day. But there are limitations as to how many cars can be charged. If on a 20 kW feeder the most that can be taken from it in a day os 20*24 = 480 kWh. If max R1T's charge from this station it can only provide 20*24/180 = 2.7 full charges per day. And they have to be spaced out. If I take half the battery out and another guy comes along behind me and takes the other half then the station has to charge me from the mains at 20 kW. Twice what I'd get at home but still essentially Level 2 rates.

While the basic concept of a buffer battery is good there is quite a bit of snake oil here. Also note that "fast" to this man is 150 kW. That's not fast to the Rivians which will take 300 at first and eventually 350.

Yes, this guy is definitely a snake oil salesman. If you charge a car for 20minutes at 150KW, then you have used 50KWH of power. Meaning you will no have to wait 2.5 hours to replenish that, assuming 100% efficiency at 20KW input. Forget the Rivian or any other vehicle, the numbers simply do not add up. That is less than 10 cars per day, not 20 as he claimed they could support.

 

[Lil'O Annie]

If you charge a car for 20minutes at 150KW, then you have used 50KWH of power. Meaning you will no have to wait 2.5 hours to replenish that, assuming 100% efficiency at 20KW input.

I'm pretty sure he is talking about charging up to 40% in 20 min.. I could be wrong.

What new EV owners need to learn, and current EV owners need to remember, is to protect the battery the speed of charging (DCFC) ramps DOWN a lot from 40%-80% full, then drastically drops further from 80%-100%. So, depending on the need (distance) to get where you are going, or your next charge stop, there are situations where charging fast to just 40% would be your best strategy for travel time. Some people plan long distance trips in 40% charging blocks due to the charge time variations.

It's a new very-different world folks, and you really need to think differently about refueling. You do get use to it, though. But, there is a learning curve. Don't expect to jump in your Rivian and go another 300 miles after every DCFC session, unless you have a lot of extra time to sit and wait for a 100% charge. Timewise, it's more efficient to stop more frequently and charge at the faster speeds.

 

[Autolycus]

A related major flaw in this Freewire concept of an all-in-one box: Let's say a location needs 10 DCFC pedestals to support demand at that location. How does the end-user know which stations are fully charged and which ones might be depleted from other users?

Edit: The alternative setup that they show in the video is a Tesla supercharging location with a Tesla Powerpack supporting the whole station. That setup has the big advantage of batteries in the pedestal since it doesn't matter which station someone plugs into.

 

[Lil'O Annie]

A related major flaw in this Freewire concept of an all-in-one box: Let's say a location needs 10 DCFC pedestals to support demand at that location. How does the end-user know which stations are fully charged and which ones might be depleted from other users?

That's a good question that I didn't hear them address. Would seem they could easily include a "box" charge-level indicator on the screen, so you could choose the fullest "box", though.

 

[ajdelange]

A related major flaw in this Freewire concept of an all-in-one box: Let's say a location needs 10 DCFC pedestals to support demand at that location. How does the end-user know which stations are fully charged and which ones might be depleted from other users?

By means of the user interface or if they want to make it easier by means of signal lights visible from the car.

Edit: The alternative setup that they show in the video is a Tesla supercharging location with a Tesla Powerpack supporting the whole station. That setup has the big advantage of batteries in the pedestal since it doesn't matter which station someone plugs into.

As I said, the concept is basically sound. With the exception of Paramus, NJ all the super chargers I go to are largely empty. This means crest factor, the ratio of peak to average demand is high. Put n terminals on one battery and you can charge it at the average rate which is going to be way lower than the peak rate. But you must have enough battery to satisfy the peak demand for as long as it lasts.

 

[Dark-Fx]

It's a new very-different world folks, and you really need to think differently about refueling. You do get use to it, though. But, there is a learning curve. Don't expect to jump in your Rivian and go another 300 miles after every DCFC session, unless you have a lot of extra time to sit and wait for a 100% charge. Timewise, it's more efficient to stop more frequently and charge at the faster speeds.

I'm really wondering if this information is going to be available in such a way that we'll be able to make informed decisions about the difference between LE and the Max Pack versions. In theory the max packs should be able to accept a higher rate of charge, or the same rate of charge for a much longer period. Being able to get 30-40% more energy in the same amount of time sure would make the additional cost a no-brainer for someone who intends on often traveling a lot of miles in a day.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm pretty sure he is talking about charging up to 40% in 20 min.. I could be wrong.

No matter. I calculated that in 24 hours one can obtain 2.7 full Rivian charges. That means you could serve 2.7 Rivians seeking a full charge. Or 5.4 seeking 50% charge or 6.75 needing a 40% charge.

Yes, the ROT is that it takes 40% of an hour to charge 40% of your battery i.e. 24 minutes.

It's a new very-different world folks, and you really need to think differently about refueling. You do get use to it, though. But, there is a learning curve. Don't expect to jump in your Rivian and go another 300 miles after every DCFC session, unless you have a lot of extra time to sit and wait for a 100% charge. Timewise, it's more efficient to stop more frequently and charge at the faster speeds.

It's not really that different. You think more the way a pilot does than you are used to. You don't fill your tanks completely (because for a pilot that takes up weight that could be used for payload and for you because you want to stay out of the top 80% of SoC for battery life and charging speed) but rather to the point where there is enough to reach your destination, proceed to an alternate if necessary and have some margin beyond that. On a road trip it is convenient to limit your charges to 80%. When you arrive at a charging stop replenish up to 80%. If you are at 30% that means replacing 50% of the battery which will take about half an hour. Or maybe you are more comfortable with 70%. That will save you a little time at each charging stop.

 

[Lil'O Annie]

No matter. I calculated that in 24 hours one can obtain 2.7 full Rivian charges. That means you could serve 2.7 Rivians seeking a full charge. Or 5.4 seeking 50% charge or 6.75 needing a 40% charge.

Yes, the ROT is that it takes 40% of an hour to charge 40% of your battery i.e. 24 minutes.

It's not really that different. You think more the way a pilot does than you are used to. You don't fill your tanks completely (because for a pilot that takes up weight that could be used for payload and for you because you want to stay out of the top 80% of SoC for battery life and charging speed) but rather to the point where there is enough to reach your destination, proceed to an alternate if necessary and have some margin beyond that. On a road trip it is convenient to limit your charges to 80%. When you arrive at a charging stop replenish up to 80%. If you are at 30% that means replacing 50% of the battery which will take about half an hour. Or maybe you are more comfortable with 70%. That will save you a little time at each charging stop.

Yep...I agree. I see you have a Tesla X...you know how to travel in an EV. I'm mainly thinking of the people that are not familiar with EV travel. And, most of us are not pilots. For non-EV drivers, and non-pilots, there will be a bit of a shocking learning curve. As you and I both know, it's well worth it and you do get use to it. EVs are just better. As a Tesla owner, you've got it made due to that fantastic charging network. After Rivian gets their network up and fully running, it will be nice, too, I'm sure. But at first, we Riviots will need to do some careful planning for our adventure trips. Will be a blast and I'm not worried a bit!

 

[ajdelange]

Well perhaps it is because of pilot training or perhaps because of the ubiquity of Tesla chargers or perhaps because of engineering background or maybe all three that I simply did not find the paradigm shift major at all. I found myself wondering what all the fuss was about. Did you really find it shocking.

I strongly encourage planning. If I had had a tool like ABRP for planning trips in ICE cars or airplanes I would have used it.

Because of the concerns I see here I approached a guy charging a Bolt at a rest stop and asked his impressions of the CCS network. He said in essence "No problem". I am hoping my first trips in my R1T will not turn out to be shockers!

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