New CarPlay Support Email?

[DuckTruck]

I certainly understand why some folks are upset about this, even if I'm not. But FWIW I think the theories about Rivian's rationale are verging into conspiracy territory.

I don't think it's about subscription upsells, or data collection, or licensing fees, or anything that cynical. It's about owning the end to end user experience.

Look at everything else Rivian is doing - first-party charging networks, service networks, direct sales, deep partnerships leading to a curated selection of accessories, integrated fleet offerings, membership programs, Guides, etc. They want to be able to design the full experience you have with the car.

Android Auto and CarPlay turn the infotainment stack into a dumb terminal. It may be desirable in the abstract to some consumers, but from Rivian's point of view it creates all kinds of problems. How do you make sure that the mapping interface routes cars to compatible chargers? Is it aware of the truck's state of charge? Is the audio high quality and optimized for the sound system? Is the interface latency and display quality up to snuff? Can you still control media playback if you e.g. switch to the Drive Mode screen? How does it interact with the binnacle display? And a thousand et ceteras.

No, none of those are absolute dealbreakers, and I'm sure some of you are thinking right now "so what, I can work around those / manage my own solution / manage multiple interfaces." And that's valid for you. But this is very much a "vertical integration" vs. "open ecosystem" debate and it's clear what side Rivian has chosen, and reasonably so. I've driven plenty of vehicles where AA/CarPlay are a confusing mess and you're constantly bouncing between totally different interfaces.

If I'm Rivian's experience team, I don't want to offload that to customers just to please a subset of power users. Instead I want to identify their actual customer problems ("I want to be able to play Spotify," "I want high quality mapping and traffic data," "I want to see my text messages...") and solve those in a thoughtful, integrated way that plays to the vehicle's strengths.

This is exactly what Tesla has done, and certainly opinions vary. But personally I love that I never have to think about my phone or iOS when I'm driving my Model Y. The infotainment system is just right for my needs, thoughtfully integrated with the vehicle's controls, and a better user experience than CarPlay. I'm confident Rivian can get there too for my needs, even if it won't make everyone happy.

My point here is not that anyone is wrong to want AA/CarPlay - you want what you want, and that's fine. If it's a deal breaker, I understand. My point is just that you don't need to dig for conspiratorial reasons why Rivian is doing this. Slapping someone else's UI in the middle of your interface is a design kludge and inconsistent with everything about Rivian's brand and product philosophy.

Kyle,

Yours is one of the best-articulated comments I've read in months. You've gone into greater detail in telling me what RJ was trying to explain in the Cloud Ten event in Normal in late July. While simultaneously showing us everything about the R1T, the Amazon vans, the R1S, the factory, the team, etc., he took the time to talk about the beauty of developing all of the programs that will control the experience we have with our Rivians.

While some were more concerned with the lack of the Android and Apple platforms/apps, I was disappointed with the absence of SiriusXM. He eloquently explained the desire (and need) to own the entire experience and promised it would be outstanding. Being one who doesn't utilize much of the functionality/capability of my phone (I make calls and texts), I'm more concerned with the music that provides the soundtrack to my trips and my life. It's a very rare moment when I don't have Rock, Blues, Jazz, or Bluegrass spilling out of my speakers.

RJ assured me that the Spotify would be a better way to craft my personal soundtrack than the randomness of SiriusXM. He's a quick study. I think my expression told him that that was a disappointing response. He waited about two seconds before saying something like "Really. If you give it a chance, I think you're going to love Spotify."

He was right. He also said something similar about AA/CP, qualifying it with something like "We want it to do what you need, but want to own it from top to bottom." My words, not his, but that was the message. He doesn't want to have to incorporate an assortment of others' hardware and software when they can build their own to their exact specs and design.

Makes me wish I hadn't whined so much about missing my beloved S/XM radio, but his response to my whining did bring about the explanation that helped to make me understand the situation much better than I had before. And, as I just experienced this past Monday, losing SiriusXM will save me from their painful 90-minute "Cancellation/ Renewal" dance every year.

Again, thanks again for articulating your thoughts so very well, and also for your wonderful writing style, in general. Your thoughts are always a joy to read. Following along with the interactions you've had here with @CommodoreAmiga and others has further grown my understanding of why we're getting what we're getting. I'm pretty stoked about what's coming next Spring. RJ said what we'll get in the UI will not disappoint, and I believe him.

Happy Holidays to you and yours, and to everyone out there!

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[sierraskier]

Bottom line: customer choice and flexibility always wins over lock-in. Trying to "own the experience top to bottom" is driven out of manufacturer-first mindset, which again NEVER EVER wins out over a customer-first mindset. If you want to please customers, give them options and choice.... provide both Rivian native and AA/CarPlay, compete head-to-head and if the Rivian native experience is in fact better customers will vote by using it over CarPlay. Anything less than that is a land grab and will alienate a good percentage of customers.

 

[Dbeglor]

Bottom line: customer choice and flexibility always wins over lock-in. Trying to "own the experience top to bottom" is driven out of manufacturer-first mindset, which again NEVER EVER wins out over a customer-first mindset. If you want to please customers, give them options and choice.... provide both Rivian native and AA/CarPlay, compete head-to-head and if the Rivian native experience is in fact better customers will vote by using it over CarPlay. Anything less than that is a land grab and will alienate a good percentage of customers.

Bottom line is it's not worth debating, because the market will dictate whether they need it or not. If at some point they determine that their factories are underutilized due to the lack of CP/AA, they can flip a switch and turn it on, nothing lost. Evidence has shown that someone with a strong product otherwise can sell upwards of at least 1m vehicles a year (with supply constraints) without it (Tesla), so by that metric Rivian won't need to offer it until at least 2030, by which time CP/AA will only exist in 10-15 year old vehicles with dated systems. At that point you'll have two camps - the integrated camp that Tesla and Rivian are in, and the open camp that uses Android OS and perhaps Apple if they get in the game.

So, you can certainly claim that it's infringing on your desire to buy their vehicles, but a case cannot be made yet that it is in their interests to change strategy.

 

[camaroz1985]

I think the major holdback on allowing CP/AA is navigation and integration with charging. Rivian's navigation knows your state of charge and realtime usage. It "should" be able to route you to supported and functioning chargers on a trip should you need it, and re-route you if your usage is more than predicted or chargers are full. There is no way to integrate that functionality into an iOS or Android app short of Rivian making their own navigation apps for those platforms that would link the truck's system. It makes no sense for them to do that.

I think the publicity of a bunch of people running out of battery because they are following Apple Maps, or ABRP, or Waze, or "name your app here" would be far more detrimental to the brand then the relatively small number of owners or potential owners who are upset about not having CP or AA.

I was in the camp of "any vehicle I buy MUST have CP" when buying an ICE/PHEV vehicle, but pivoting to pure EV makes me see the benefits of the Rivian/Tesla method. I still wish it had SiriusXM for those areas I drive in that have poor or no cell service, but hopefully offline Spotify playlists will make this a non-issue. I am going to try to use Spotify for my podcasts too and see if that works for me too, if not I can use BT for them.

I guess it all comes down to compromise and your money. If you think it is too big of a compromise for a product of this price (or any price), put your money where your mouth is, or in that case, keep it in your pocket. There will be other options, and there will be pros and cons to each of them, and yes potentially other compromises you must consider.

I don't find it to be a big enough detriment for me to not want the truck, and I'm not counting on it ever being introduced via OTA. If it does, that might be a bonus at that time, but there is a possibility I will have adapted to the Rivian system if/when that happens, and may not even notice.

 

[Obioban]

Rivian won't need to offer it until at least 2030, by which time CP/AA will only exist in 10-15 year old vehicles with dated systems.

One of the things that's nice about CP/AA is that the systems don't become dated-- they update with the phone's OS. Better processors every time you upgrade your phone, better software every time you update your phone's OS, faster internet connectivity as phone modems/networks improve.

 

[Obioban]

I think the major holdback on allowing CP/AA is navigation and integration with charging. Rivian's navigation knows your state of charge and realtime usage. It "should" be able to route you to supported and functioning chargers on a trip should you need it, and re-route you if your usage is more than predicted or chargers are full. There is no way to integrate that functionality into an iOS or Android app short of Rivian making their own navigation apps for those platforms that would link the truck's system. It makes no sense for them to do that.

Already today you can convey state of charge and range information to CarPlay, which can be used for EV route planning at least in Apple Maps (don't know if other apps also support it, but certainly they will in the future if they don't already). This is not a stumbling block.

 

[astonius]

I think the major holdback on allowing CP/AA is navigation and integration with charging. Rivian's navigation knows your state of charge and realtime usage. It "should" be able to route you to supported and functioning chargers on a trip should you need it, and re-route you if your usage is more than predicted or chargers are full. There is no way to integrate that functionality into an iOS or Android app short of Rivian making their own navigation apps for those platforms that would link the truck's system. It makes no sense for them to do that.

I think the publicity of a bunch of people running out of battery because they are following Apple Maps, or ABRP, or Waze, or "name your app here" would be far more detrimental to the brand then the relatively small number of owners or potential owners who are upset about not having CP or AA.

I was in the camp of "any vehicle I buy MUST have CP" when buying an ICE/PHEV vehicle, but pivoting to pure EV makes me see the benefits of the Rivian/Tesla method. I still wish it had SiriusXM for those areas I drive in that have poor or no cell service, but hopefully offline Spotify playlists will make this a non-issue. I am going to try to use Spotify for my podcasts too and see if that works for me too, if not I can use BT for them.

I guess it all comes down to compromise and your money. If you think it is too big of a compromise for a product of this price (or any price), put your money where your mouth is, or in that case, keep it in your pocket. There will be other options, and there will be pros and cons to each of them, and yes potentially other compromises you must consider.

I don't find it to be a big enough detriment for me to not want the truck, and I'm not counting on it ever being introduced via OTA. If it does, that might be a bonus at that time, but there is a possibility I will have adapted to the Rivian system if/when that happens, and may not even notice.

Already today you can convey state of charge and range information to CarPlay, which can be used for EV route planning. This is not a stumbling block.

And even if it was, navigation is only part of the equation, and the presence of CP/AA does not negate Rivian's ability to use the GPS and battery levels to warn you about your state of charge and prompt you to find a charger.

Music, podcasts, voice and text. All of these are key. RJ can tell me till he's red in the face that Spotify is what I should be using, but Spotify does not offer what I need from my music library.

 

[camaroz1985]

Already today you can convey state of charge and range information to CarPlay, which can be used for EV route planning at least in Apple Maps (don't know if other apps also support it, but certainly they will in the future if they don't already). This is not a stumbling block.

Wasn't aware you could do that, never had the opportunity to try that out. Will have to do more research. I knew Apple Maps could find charging stations, but I didn't know it could read the SoC/Range from the vehicle, and be used for route planning.

And even if it was, navigation is only part of the equation, and the presence of CP/AA does not negate Rivian's ability to use the GPS and battery levels to warn you about your state of charge and prompt you to find a charger.

Music, podcasts, voice and text. All of these are key. RJ can tell me till he's red in the face that Spotify is what I should be using, but Spotify does not offer what I need from my music library.

I understand you can use CP for navigation and still have notifications from the truck about battery status, but if the two aren't integrated it will not be as smooth of an experience.

Like I said I understand that different people value these things at different levels, and if this is something that is a deal breaker for you, then this simply isn't the vehicle for you. Maybe at some point enough people will take a similar stance, and it will be added. Then you can reconsider Rivian for your next vehicle purchase.

 

[Obioban]

Like I said I understand that different people value these things at different levels, and if this is something that is a deal breaker for you, then this simply isn't the vehicle for you. Maybe at some point enough people will take a similar stance, and it will be added. Then you can reconsider Rivian for your next vehicle purchase.

The problem is that Rivian more or less has a monopoly on this, at the moment.

But, yeah, taking my money and walking is going to be my strategy of choice if they don't add carplay.

... Lucid is supporting carplay, so perhaps it'll be time to add another sedan to the fleet. All else equal, I'd rather rivian (as the Lucid would be a 4th sedan added), but it is what it is.

 

[astonius]

Like I said I understand that different people value these things at different levels, and if this is something that is a deal breaker for you, then this simply isn't the vehicle for you. Maybe at some point enough people will take a similar stance, and it will be added. Then you can reconsider Rivian for your next vehicle purchase.

That's what is so frustrating. There's really not a competing product, and certainly not one available at the moment. Rivian's stubbornness to forgo an otherwise commonly-included software feature is the biggest hangup and the easiest thing for them to correct before delivery, hence why so many of us are being so vocal about it.

 

[camaroz1985]

That's what is so frustrating. There's really not a competing product, and certainly not one available at the moment. Rivian's stubbornness to forgo an otherwise commonly-included software feature is the biggest hangup and the easiest thing for them to correct before delivery, hence why so many of us are being so vocal about it.

I understand the frustration, but it is highly subjective that "the easiest thing for them to correct before delivery" is giving you CP/AA. The easiest thing for them is to keep the status quo and start shipping trucks.

At that point we have do have options, again all with pros and cons:
1) Buy a Rivian, adapt, and enjoy it (whenever it may be that you actually get it)
2) Buy a Rivian and keep complaining, though that may be an exercise in futility
3) Keep your deposit and keep requesting it, if it isn't added before your vehicle is built, cancel
4) Wait and buy something different
5) Wait to see if they ever add it.

 

[astonius]

I understand the frustration, but it is highly subjective that "the easiest thing for them to correct before delivery" is giving you CP/AA. The easiest thing for them is to keep the status quo and start shipping trucks.

I mean out of all the potential customer concerns, relative to other concerns, and specifically to those of us who are concerned that our apps and services won't be accessible on the Rivian. Of course "not doing it" is easier, but adding a software feature is certainly easier than changing dimensions, range, styling, etc. It's the whole reason we're having this discussion to begin with because it should just be a matter of software, and some of us have been told by Rivian customer service it is being explored as a potential OTA update in the future.

At that point we have do have options, again all with pros and cons:
1) Buy a Rivian, adapt, and enjoy it (whenever it may be that you actually get it)
2) Buy a Rivian and keep complaining, though that may be an exercise in futility
3) Keep your deposit and keep requesting it, if it isn't added before your vehicle is built, cancel
4) Wait and buy something different
5) Wait to see if they ever add it.

Leaning towards option 3 at the moment. That's what my continued outreach to customer support as well as continued focus on these CP/AA threads is about. Customers demanding a feature absolutely can have an impact. It's why BMW doesn't charge a yearly subscription for CP anymore and added AA support. It's why JLR added CP/AA in an OTA update to their vehicles for free. Others have said Rivian monitors these forums, so I'll continue to post about it until they commit to adding it or give us some sort of viable alternative that isn't "just use Spotify or bluetooth."

 

[wicked2112]

And yet you felt the need to comment. The equivalent of sending a "Reply All" telling people to stop replying to all.

I'm not the one that keeps talking - just tired hearing about it! Dont be salty!!

 

[astonius]

I'm not the one that keeps talking - just tired hearing about it! Dont be salty!!

Then ignore the thread? I still don't know why you're here.

 

[wicked2112]

Then ignore the thread? I still don't know why you're here.

I here to enjoy my Rivian when it arrives - that why I am here. But, since NONE of us own the company outright like RJ, we should keep our wants to a realistic ask. If they dont want to add it, let it go then. When you own the company, and it called RYAN - then add whatever you want.

The question is - if you're that unhappy about what RIVIAN wont do, why are you here????

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