EVSE stats from EnergyStar

[electruck]

Have you checked out Clipper Creek chargers? They don't seem to be as big of a brand as some of the others but I've seen them several places around my city. I also spoke to the director of Alabama's Clean Fuels Coalition and he mentioned Clipper Creek and said that they were one of the best in his opinion. They also make a 60 amp version as well as one with two plugs on the same charger in case you plan on having two EVs in the garage. They are expensive but the seem well built.

https://store.clippercreek.com/featured/hcs-60-48-amp-ev-charging-station?sort=p.price&order=DESC

Yes, that unit was included in the energystar comparison I linked in my OP. Don't see anything that makes that unit worth the price premium over some of the other options.

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[electruck]

One of the other interesting tidbits from the energystar comparison is the size of the conductors in the charging cable:

JuiceBox 48 - 6 AWG
ClipperCreek 60 (delivers 48A) - 10 AWG
ChargePoint Home Flex - 9 AWG
WattZilla Uno - 6 AWG (I suspect same cable used for Wall Wattz 48 but can't yet confirm)

AJ - assuming the listed info is accurate, what's your take on this difference? Obviously smaller wire will be easier to handle. And they all seem to meet various safety standards. Is 6 AWG overkill? Is 10 AWG a concern?

 

[electruck]

For the JuiceBox 48, Enel X has confirmed that is the 48A unit listed on energystar.gov and in my comparison link in the OP.

And in case anyone wanted to know, they also informed me the pigtail is 3 ft long.

 

[electruck]

Have to correct myself here thanks to No. 14. The hard wired Clipper Creek chargers connect to the mains through a pigtail which is spliced to the wires from the panel in a junction box mounted near it. That splice could be made with wire nuts I guess but for something as big as No. 6 I much prefer these:
https://www.greenelectricalsupply.com/2-through-14-pre-insulated-in-line-splice-connector.aspx

Only downside is that they are big and expensive.

This may be something to consider. EVSE that installs with an internal terminal block makes for a slightly neater installation.

Yes, ChargePoint Home Flex also uses internal terminal block and the plug-in cable can be converted to hardwired at the time of installation. JuiceBox NextGen 48 uses a pigtail. Presumably Wall Wattz also uses a pigtail since converting from plug-in to hardwired seems to require factory change before shipping (as per FrankG).

 

[ajdelange]

Conductors in cords are rated for allowable current just as are more permanent coductors. The NEC website isn't being very cooperative this AM but a cord manufacturer's ratings I found show only AWG 6 capable of handing 48 A. No. 10 they only list for 30 and AFAIK there is no such thing as AWG 9. So yes, I would be concerned about a 48 A charger using AWG 10 wire. It is going to get hot. Now perhaps they are using a cable with high temperature insulation but, especially from your POV on energy wastage that heat is energy wasted.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, ChargePoint Home Flex also uses internal terminal block and the plug-in cable can be converted to hardwired at the time of installation.

Interestingly enough none of the plug in units (except the Black Mamba 40 A version) can be installed in a way that complies with NEC 2020. How bizarre is that?

resumably Wall Wattz also uses a pigtail since converting from plug-in to hardwired seems to require factory change before shipping (as per FrankG).

I would expect it with them with the issue being maintaining the 4X rating. That would be hard to insure if they relied on the installer coming up with the proper gland.

 

[OldEVGuy]

Interestingly enough none of the plug in units (except the Black Mamba 40 A version) can be installed in a way that complies with NEC 2020. How bizarre is that?

I would expect it with them with the issue being maintaining the 4X rating. That would be hard to insure if they relied on the installer coming up with the proper gland.

I asked Enel X about the JuiceBox 40 (plug-in) and the issue you pointed out with NEC 625.54.
This is the response I received yesterday:
We understand certain state electrical codes require GFCI breakers so the JuiceBox can operate with these types of breakers. We simply recommend against them if possible. If it's not possible in your state, that's fine.

I asked if that means the JuiceBox 40 would not be damaged if I needed to use a GFCI breaker per my local code.
They’re response:
Correct, the Next Gen units work on GFCI breakers.

 

[electruck]

I asked Enel X about the JuiceBox 40 (plug-in) and the issue you pointed out with NEC 625.54.
This is the response I received yesterday:
We understand certain state electrical codes require GFCI breakers so the JuiceBox can operate with these types of breakers. We simply recommend against them if possible. If it's not possible in your state, that's fine.

I asked if that means the JuiceBox 40 would not be damaged if I needed to use a GFCI breaker per my local code.
They’re response:
Correct, the Next Gen units work on GFCI breakers.

Regarding GFCI, the only "risk" I am aware of is nuisance tripping as reported by some manufacturers.

 

[OldEVGuy]

Regarding GFCI, the only "risk" I am aware of is nuisance tripping as reported by some manufacturers.

Good to know. I was concerned, apparently for no reason, that the equipment could be damaged. Thanks!

 

[ajdelange]

The GFCI requirement is ridiculous as the EVSE itself is required to have it.

The EVSE must insure that the car is grounded. How can it do that? It has to send a signal through the earthing wire. And that signal must come from a hot. This is exactly the situation that sets off GFCI. Clearly newer EVSE can engineer this test signal so that it does not set off the GFCI (very low frequency or DC) but older systems might trip a GFCI breaker. I have experimented with this with Teslas and not found it to be a problem that is a Tesla can test for ground without tripping a panel GFCI breaker. Other brands???

GFCI is only required on outlets installed for EVSE. So I guess a workaround is to install the outlet for some other reason and then plug your EVSE into that. Can't imagine that approach would satisfy a savvy inspector though.

 

[DucRider]

The NEC is a bit contradictory in several areas. Inspectors need to put their own lens on what the intent is.
A couple of examples are the the requirement that a circuit installed for an EVSE be dedicated to only the EVSE, followed by a section on how to size a circuit that has an EVSE and other outlets/devices on it.
The requirement that the circuit be protected with an interrupting device (GFCI) and specifies the length of the cord if the protection is within the the EVSE seemingly contradicts the section that requires that the outlet itself have the GFCI.

One requirement that in almost universally ignored is that any EVSE with a plug must be installed in a manner that allows for tool free removal. My Leviton mounting kit enables this, and such kits are offered by Clipper Creek and Enel X (JuiceBox) for their plug-in units. Not sure on Wattzilla as much of their site is not functioning today (Safety, mounting options, etc). The ChargePoint Flex cannot be mounted for tool free removal and therefor must be hardwired in order to comply with the NEC. Haven't researched others.

Clipper Creek units can never (by code) be mounted or used indoors as they will not refuse to charge a vehicle that signals that it requires ventilation when charging. They do have a label that says they are not to be used for vehicles that require ventilation while charging, but this does not satisfy the NEC. Ventilation is necessary when lead acid batteries are used, and is still in the Code. I spoke with Clipper Creek about this several years ago, and they were adamant that their units met J1772 standards and that there was no need to implement software to refuse a charging session when the vehicle requested that the ventilation fan be started. This was after a Bolt owner had an inspector fail their install of the Clipper Creek unit (in Boston?). There manual still warns against using their units indoors to charge a vehicle that requires ventilation. An EVSE that will refuse to charge a vehicle that requests ventilation will have "Ventilation not required" on the label with all the other specs/parameters.

The is also apparently a typo since the NEC requires any 60A or greater than 150V EVSE to have a lockable disconnect. I suspect the "or" should be "and".

Undoubtedly there are many other areas that require a bit of interpretation in the NEC, not just Article 625 about Vehicle Charging.

 

[azbill]

One of the other interesting tidbits from the energystar comparison is the size of the conductors in the charging cable:

JuiceBox 48 - 6 AWG
ClipperCreek 60 (delivers 48A) - 10 AWG
ChargePoint Home Flex - 9 AWG
WattZilla Uno - 6 AWG (I suspect same cable used for Wall Wattz 48 but can't yet confirm)

AJ - assuming the listed info is accurate, what's your take on this difference? Obviously smaller wire will be easier to handle. And they all seem to meet various safety standards. Is 6 AWG overkill? Is 10 AWG a concern?

I have the ChargePoint Home Flex, the wire size is 6 AWG, not 9. Actually 9 AWG does not exist as a standard size.

I am not sure this has been brought up on this thread yet, but if you are going to charge at 48A, then the entire circuit must be rated at 60A. That means 60A breaker, 6AWG wire and hardwired. I set my ChargePoint to 40A limit because it is plugged into an existing 50A rated circuit with a NEMA plug. I do not want to burn my house down just to add 8 amps of extra charging.

50A circuit breakers will over heat and trip in 2 hours when running 50A continuous. The 50A rated NEMA connectors can also overheat and fail under that continuous load, there is potential for arcing and that creates a fire hazard. Max continuous (>2 hours) is 80% of the circuit rating, thus 40A limit for 50A circuit and 48A limit for 60A circuit.

 

[electruck]

I have the ChargePoint Home Flex, the wire size is 6 AWG, not 9. Actually 9 AWG does not exist as a standard size.

I am not sure this has been brought up on this thread yet, but if you are going to charge at 48A, then the entire circuit must be rated at 60A. That means 60A breaker, 6AWG wire and hardwired. I set my ChargePoint to 40A limit because it is plugged into an existing 50A rated circuit with a NEMA plug. I do not want to burn my house down just to add 8 amps of extra charging.

50A circuit breakers will over heat and trip in 2 hours when running 50A continuous. The 50A rated NEMA connectors can also overheat and fail under that continuous load, there is potential for arcing and that creates a fire hazard. Max continuous (>2 hours) is 80% of the circuit rating, thus 40A limit for 50A circuit and 48A limit for 60A circuit.

Thanks for the correction on the ChargePoint Home Flex charging cable - is that from documentation or personal observation? The 9 AWG looked suspicious which is why I also made a statement about "assuming the listed info is accurate". I am also still suspicious of the Clipper Creek listing for 10 AWG in this application. Reviews have stated the JuiceBox cable is less flexible than the ChargePoint but that could be due to a number of other factors.

Circuit rating has been covered in other threads but definitely worthy of repeating in this thread.

 

[azbill]

It is based on personal observation, when you install the charger both the pigtail wires to the NEMA connector and the J1772 wires have to be connected inside the unit.

 

[electruck]

I just pinged Rivian about this, we'll see what they come back with in a few days.

Surprisingly, I got an answer back same day (maybe they've hired some additional staff as they ramp up).

Unfortunately, I only got the same response they've been giving all along:

For home setup, additional equipment (eg: Wall Box) with a CCS connector should do the trick. Using a J1772 connector and a 40 A circuit, you can expect a full charge every morning when you plug your vehicle in before bed. We'll be sharing more information on home charging solutions closer to the start of production.

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