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Rivian Automatically Records "Incidents" - Privacy Concerns

ukyank

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It's cute that you think this is about safety. It's about PROFIT for insurance companies. First off, the 1984 reference wasn't to the actual year 1984, but the book. Read it sometime, it's classic literature for a reason. Keep in mind it was written as a warning not an instruction manual.

No one elected you fun police. If you want to enforce traffic laws become a cop.
Yes. I would rather insurance profit more off of unsafer drivers then have to pay for the risk associated with them via the shared pool method currently employed. Bring on the telemetrics & make cost more fair.
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Donald Stanfield

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All serious matters aside, let's talk about data privacy and evil insurance companies; because I totally agree with that point.

If you want to stick it to the insurance providers, you'll not only have to buy a vehicle with no onboard data modem, but you'll also have to delete any GEICO or nationwide or State Farm apps off your phone. You'll also have to leave your phone at home while you drive just to be safe, as they can easily purchase location data from other apps that run in the background.

Ironically, the only way to get out of this scenario is through regulation and strong data privacy laws. The vehicle sending data cannot be your only concern.
I have the Allstate app. You have to opt into the telematics, which I have not done. It's in the privacy settings. Second, I don't care if they have my location data; there isn't much they can do with that besides determining my mileage.

The vehicle sending data isn't my only concern, and 1984 isn't a warning against laws, so there is no irony at all that we need privacy-focused legislation. Laws that enshrine freedom and privacy are what they are supposed to be for: protecting people from those who wish to do them harm.

I know this is a multi-faceted problem and won't be solved by standing up to car manufacturers alone, but that can't hurt. GM reversed their policy and no longer sells data to third parties because of backlash after it got out that they do so.

The bottom line is this: I didn't ask for someone to sit in the seat next to me recording my driving and tattling on me like I'm perpetually taking a driver's ed road test exam. Even if my balls fall off and I start driving turtle slow I have that basic right to privacy and it should be respected.
 

Donald Stanfield

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Yes. I would rather insurance profit more off of unsafer drivers then have to pay for the risk associated with them via the shared pool method currently employed. Bring on the telemetrics & make cost more fair.
Then, you can opt into one of the insurance company's voluntary programs.
 
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GHuff

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I know you're trying to fear monger and all, but a large portion of road users were literally safer in 1984. Your ill-conceived notion that you're somehow only affecting yourself when you recklessly drive a 7,500 missile on publicly-funded roads is nonsensical.

The more this line goes up, and the corresponding one for bicyclists, the more regulation and "lack of freedom" you'll experience on the road. Keep the line down, and there won't be a need for "telematics" or the "nanny state" to crack down on you.

IMG_4082.jpeg
I get your concern about safety. I'm not trying to encourage unsafe driving. This isn't about safety, it's about privacy.

I'm also not trying to fear mongering at all. This is real concern. I'm paying more for insurance to keep some privacy. That's not a what-if scenario. It's real. And it's real that Rivian automatically signs you up to share your data.
I'm also not at all saying that I have a right to harm anyone with my 7,500 missile. As I've previously stated, I'm a very safe driver and received the most discount possible for my safe driving. But I do have a right to keep my own personal data and information private.

And your graph is almost meaningless because it is a total number that doesn't take into account the increase in drivers. It needs to be on a per capita basis to be able to accurately deduce that people are somehow more reckless today. I have a feeling that if your graph was on a per capita basis, there wouldn't be a meaningful increase in fatalities.
Alternatively, here's a graph showing vehicle fatalities are down. This is largely due to in-vehicle safety features, and has very little if anything to do with open sharing of data.

Last thing-killing someone and driving reckless is already illegal. We have rules and laws in place already. Losing freedom in the name of safety is not the solution. Granting the government more power is not the answer.
Rivian R1T R1S Rivian Automatically Records "Incidents" - Privacy Concerns 1728663509153-ka
 
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GHuff

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All serious matters aside, let's talk about data privacy and evil insurance companies; because I totally agree with that point.

If you want to stick it to the insurance providers, you'll not only have to buy a vehicle with no onboard data modem, but you'll also have to delete any GEICO or nationwide or State Farm apps off your phone. You'll also have to leave your phone at home while you drive just to be safe, as they can easily purchase location data from other apps that run in the background.

Ironically, the only way to get out of this scenario is through regulation and strong data privacy laws. The vehicle sending data cannot be your only concern.
Totally agree. The insurance company I switched to offered a discount to download their app and collect data. I refused. Again, back to my first statement- These companies (including Rivian) are making it more expensive and cumbersome to keep your privacy so that they can make more money. I'm not sure how anyone could argue against that, but here we are.
 

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Last thing-killing someone and driving reckless is already illegal. We have rules and laws in place already. Losing freedom in the name of safety is not the solution. Granting the government more power is not the answer.
Rivian R1T R1S Rivian Automatically Records "Incidents" - Privacy Concerns 1728663509153-ka-png
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, however the graph you posted is misleading at best. Deaths per 100,000,000 miles is a deliberately watered down statistic. Most road-user deaths occur in the "last mile" of transportation. That's either soon after leaving your origin, or immediately before reaching your destination. Adding in the sum total of all vehicle miles traveled on highways is simply irrelevant to the issue at hand.

No one is saying car accidents are more unsafe for people in cars. It's everyone else using the roads (cyclists, pedestrians, bystanders) that are at enormous risk today.
 

Hereforthesnacks

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If you have this information stored in your car, and you get into an accident, all that information will be used - maybe for you or maybe against you. And knowing that you have that information, you will need to hand it over; you cannot delete it after the fact. So, even if the manufacturer doesn’t sell this info, having it puts responsibility on you…
 

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In 12k miles, I don’t think my R1T has recorded any incidents. I’m feeling a little left out here. How crazy do I have to drive to get some recognition? I’m guessing a little more aggressive tailgating might get me a starring role in some videos ? Maybe, if somebody is seeing a lot of these Incident clips, that might be a clue they need to adjust their driving habits. Just sayin’.
 
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GHuff

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No one is saying car accidents are more unsafe for people in cars. It's everyone else using the roads (cyclists, pedestrians, bystanders) that are at enormous risk today.
Do you think companies selling your data is going to reduce pedestrian deaths
No one is saying car accidents are more unsafe for people in cars. It's everyone else using the roads (cyclists, pedestrians, bystanders) that are at enormous risk today.
Do you think companies selling your data is going to reduce pedestrian deaths? That's the first question you'd need to answer.
And if all we care about is non-vehicle accidents, then why doesn't Rivian or any other insurance focus on that data? It wouldn't be too hard for the computer to only recognize unsafe driving as it pertains to a bicycle or pedestrian. I'm pretty sure the answer is because car's are expensive and car insurance is a profitable business.
 

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SPITmadFIRE

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Do you think companies selling your data is going to reduce pedestrian deaths
No. I think driving recklessly is a problem that kills more children than almost any other single cause. I don't know what your graph has to do with that point.

I also don't think insurance companies have any incentive to make driving more safe. They will profit either way. I simply found the attitude of "I want to be able to blow through pink lights in private" to be reprehensible.
 

SPITmadFIRE

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Don’t buy a 800 horsepower vehicle if you don’t expect to have a few.
See, this is the kind of logic that will make the rest of the public outraged that these products even exist. If the purpose of a product is to be able to break safety laws, then it's only a matter of time before the public as a whole pushes back against that. This sort of attitude is the reason why speed-governor legislation is being proposed.

Stop equating horsepower and recklessness. We're all Rivian enthusiasts here, and this line of thinking only serves to harm us all.
 

Donald Stanfield

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No. I think driving recklessly is a problem that kills more children than almost any other single cause. I don't know what your graph has to do with that point.

I also don't think insurance companies have any incentive to make driving more safe. They will profit either way. I simply found the attitude of "I want to be able to blow through pink lights in private" to be reprehensible.
How does selling data prevent driving recklessly? First, define reckless driving. There's no point in any discussion if we cannot agree on what is, and is not reckless driving. For example, do you think getting up to 70 MPH, posted freeway speed, on a freeway onramp in a rapid manner is reckless or not? Assume for the sake of this question the pavement is dry, there is low traffic volume and the onramp is flat and straight with high visibility.

Give a couple of examples of reckless driving so we know we are talking about the same thing. No one here advocates driving your car through neighborhoods at 90MPH, running over lawns and whatnot.
 

Donald Stanfield

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Don’t buy a 800 horsepower vehicle if you don’t expect to have a few.
See, this is the kind of logic that will make the rest of the public outraged that these products even exist. If the purpose of a product is to be able to break safety laws, then it's only a matter of time before the public as a whole pushes back against that. This sort of attitude is the reason why speed-governor legislation is being proposed.

Stop equating horsepower and recklessness. We're all Rivian enthusiasts here, and this line of thinking only serves to harm us all.
There are two sides to this. I would say that ANY driver will have a few incidents here and there. There are always a few drivers who aren't paying attention, and you cannot always anticipate someone cutting you off to make you decelerate enough to count it as an incident. Not to mention there are some lights around here with red light cameras, as such their yellow light time is set artificially low.

Since their yellow light time is lower than normal, this is a documented issue with intersections that have red light cameras, people either lock up their brakes or floor it to make said light. https://www.koaa.com/news/news5-inv...t=According to city records, a,: 719-577-4650.

Link is for proof I didn't make that up. So if I'm approaching that light and it changes color and I brake rapidly to avoid running said light was it my unsafe driving or a light that was unsafe that caused that issue? Telematics doesn't differentiate between stuff like that and drivers who are tailgating, not paying attention, and have to lock up their brakes to avoid a collision.

The point is I can think of tons of scenarios where even an exceptionally safe driver could be seen as dangerous due to telematics. I don't think anyone here is advocating for wanton abandonment of traffic laws and driving your car as fast as possible all the time risk be damned. If your view is there is never a safe place to accelerate a little faster than normal then you and I won't agree. Maybe I could see this viewpoint if you live in a city where traffic and people density is very high.

Some of us live in the country and have roads with 55MPH+ speed limits. Many of them 4 or more lanes with good visibility and traction. What is safe in a lower population density area may not be safe in an area with more people. I'm not doing launches downtown in some major metropolitan area or in my local subdivision where the kids play street hockey a few feet away. No one in their right mind would think that is safe.
 

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I have incidents turned on and have nothing there.
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