Ford Ditches Electric SUV: Is it Time to Address the Elephant in the Room?

[SASSquatch]

Don’t agree. Rivian will go out of business if they try to get into the hybrid game.

This is more about getting into the licensing game than the hybrid game.

There is no uptick in hybrid demand.

There are numerous Toyota and Honda models that are slowly phasing out ICE only options and those are HUGE selling vehicles. I don't believe anyone is actively searching for hybrids, they're just not car enthusiasts and their boring brand of choice is Toyota & Honda. Ford has also started offering hybrid models of their trucks. Those trucks are top 10 selling vehicles in the US. Even if 10% of those buyers opt for the hybrid, that will artificially show a surge in hybrid demand.

Camry = Hybrid only (top selling vehicle in the US for about a decade)
RAV4 = Hybrid is only $2500 more than pure ICE(Hybrid will be only option soon)
Corolla =Hybrid about $2500 more than pure ICE (Hybrid will be only option soon)
CRV = Hybrid $3500 more than ICE (Going pure hybrid soon) Major seller

Gas prices are pretty low right now if you look at inflation. $2.90 to $3.50 in more of the country.

There is a tremendous amount of unknowns for most buyers due to successful misinformation from oil companies and Toyota. I will never buy a Toyota product again.

Except, numbers...

Edit to include source: https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicle...-electric-vehicle-sales-united-states-grew-53

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[SASSquatch]

Yes, my thoughts exactly. I've seen this "Rivian loses $30k on every R1 they sell" a lot. I always thought that included their legacy startup costs which should eventually go away. Not to mention upcoming new factory builds, etc. Who came up with that $30k deficit anyway. Not trying to be a smart ass, I've just seen that figure used so am curious who/where it came from.

Rivian came up with that number. It's listed in their shareholder letter:

"In its Q2 2023 letter to shareholders, Rivian revealed that it has lost $32,595 for every vehicle it sold that quarter. That's enough money to buy an entire Honda Civic and still have some change left over."

https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

 

[emoore]

Rivian came up with that number. It's listed in their shareholder letter:

"In its Q2 2023 letter to shareholders, Rivian revealed that it has lost $32,595 for every vehicle it sold that quarter. That's enough money to buy an entire Honda Civic and still have some change left over."

https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

That was 2023. It’s different now.

 

[SASSquatch]

That was 2023. It’s different now.

Correct. They reported in their 2024 Q1 earnings call that they are currently losing $32,700 per vehicle.

https://www.investors.com/news/rivian-stock-q2-earnings/#:~:text=Rivian lost around $32,700 per,the first quarter of 2024.

 

[emoore]

Correct. They reported in their 2024 Q2 earnings that they are currently losing $32,700 per vehicle.

https://www.investors.com/news/rivian-stock-q2-earnings/#:~:text=Rivian lost around $32,700 per,the first quarter of 2024.

that’s just a sensationalized statistic that means nothing.

 

[ttphhi]

Rivian came up with that number. It's listed in their shareholder letter:

"In its Q2 2023 letter to shareholders, Rivian revealed that it has lost $32,595 for every vehicle it sold that quarter. That's enough money to buy an entire Honda Civic and still have some change left over."

https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

Thanks for the reference. Does anyone know if that's improved? Q2 2023 is almost a year and a half ago. Rivian has been shipping R1s for maybe 3 years so relative to today that's half the company's retail life ago. I know most of us are definite fans here, I know I am, so just trying to find a small light at the end of a real dark tunnel. Especially since I should finally be taking delivery of my R1S next week.

 

[SASSquatch]

Thanks for the reference. Does anyone know if that's improved? Q2 2023 is almost a year and a half ago. Rivian has been shipping R1s for maybe 3 years so relative to today that's half the company's retail life ago. I know most of us are definite fans here, I know I am, so just trying to find a small light at the end of a real dark tunnel. Especially since I should finally be taking delivery of my R1S next week.

No, it hasn't improved yet. In their most recent earnings call they indicated $32,700. Probably because the costs in executing efficiencies in the plant.

In order for them to drive that number down, they have to maximize production at Normal but they need demand signal to actually sell all the vehicles they need to make to realize gains.

 

[bummin]

I have a hybrid after a Rivian, sold our R1S as wife didn’t like ride and still have R1T. Have a 24 Tundra hybrid, in a nutshell I hate it. Drive train is sloppy, jerking when going back and forth between engine on or off. Storage in the Tundra equates to the floor, center console, and glove box. Plus I had to go in for an oil change, how 20th century was that crap?

Looking back at some ICE vehicles I had, I see now how inferior they were, and hybrid in some vehicles is a joke. I average 14mpg in the Tundra, I averaged 15+ in my Ram with an old school Hemi compared to my hybrid twin turbo v6 with latest tech. (My right foot is still old school on and off)

If we are talking the elephant in the room, lets call it out and its name is ICE. Hybrid is admitting adding an electric motor makes thing better, ditching the engine makes is great. OK charging is hit or miss, but insurance part is BS. I pay almost $1400 in CO for 6 months on my Tundra, about $900 for Rivian with Allstate in their top tier of a driver rating. My 19 year old daughters WRX is cheaper than my Tundra and on par with my Rivian cost.

I am waiting for our R2 to come in so I can ditch this Toyota. Companies like Ford can scrap plans for now on EV, but I for one will not buy a vehicle with an engine again unless it is something I can turn into an apocalypse vehicle and is much older. You think people bitched this much when it went from steam to ICE? I have to drive somewhere to get this gas stuff instead of filling with the hose at home? It has been over 100 years with ICE and problems still exist just like they did back then.

I will keep buying/leasing electric and probably from Rivian. If the OEM's want to help make my decision easier, don't build electric. On that note Rivian if you are reading this, for the love of GOD! partner with a company that can build an audio system again before my next one. My front end sucks on my truck but my Meridian ROCKS! (service for front end next month)

 

[SASSquatch]

that’s just a sensationalized statistic that means nothing.

It means that they are losing $32,700 for every vehicle they sell. That is the opposite of profit. The opposite of profit means you are losing money instead of making money.

In order to survive in any industry the goal is to actually make, not lose money.

 

[SASSquatch]

I have a hybrid after a Rivian, sold our R1S as wife didn’t like ride and still have R1T. Have a 24 Tundra hybrid, in a nutshell I hate it. Drive train is sloppy, jerking when going back and forth between engine on or off. Storage in the Tundra equates to the floor, center console, and glove box. Plus I had to go in for an oil change, how 20th century was that crap?

Looking back at some ICE vehicles I had, I see now how inferior they were, and hybrid in some vehicles is a joke. I average 14mpg in the Tundra, I averaged 15+ in my Ram with an old school Hemi compared to my hybrid twin turbo v6 with latest tech. (My right foot is still old school on and off)

If we are talking the elephant in the room, lets call it out and its name is ICE. Hybrid is admitting adding an electric motor makes thing better, ditching the engine makes is great. OK charging is hit or miss, but insurance part is BS. I pay almost $1400 in CO for 6 months on my Tundra, about $900 for Rivian with Allstate in their top tier of a driver rating. My 19 year old daughters WRX is cheaper than my Tundra and on par with my Rivian cost.

I am waiting for our R2 to come in so I can ditch this Toyota. Companies like Ford can scrap plans for now on EV, but I for one will not buy a vehicle with an engine again unless it is something I can turn into an apocalypse vehicle and is much older. You think people bitched this much when it went from steam to ICE? I have to drive somewhere to get this gas stuff instead of filling with the hose at home? It has been over 100 years with ICE and problems still exist just like they did back then.

I will keep buying/leasing electric and probably from Rivian. If the OEM's want to help make my decision easier, don't build electric. On that note Rivian if you are reading this, for the love of GOD! partner with a company that can build an audio system again before my next one. My front end sucks on my truck but my Meridian ROCKS! (service for front end next month)

I'm glad that your insurance is significantly less expensive on your R1 than on your Tundra. I'm not sure that is a ubiquitous experience.

When I priced out R1T insurance it added $1000 per year over my existing EV which was already $500 more than our hybrid.

I'm surprised that your Tundra Hybrid has such a poor experience. Toyota is the king of hybrids - they have been doing it longer than anyone and they have the best hybrid system.

I think going from an EV to even a refined hybrid highlights how inferior a hybrid system is. You have to have an EV to make that comparison though and most consumers, just by the numbers, have never driven an EV.

 

[emoore]

It means that they are losing $32,700 for every vehicle they sell. That is the opposite of profit. The opposite of profit means you are losing money instead of making money.

In order to survive in any industry the goal is to actually make, not lose money.

No it means they are losing money and the total loss divided by the number of vehicles they produce is what they are losing. They don’t literally lose $32k per vehicle they could.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

Whole lot of noise about nothing. Ford is pivoting to cheaper and smaller EVs because that’s what the consumers want and lacks.

 

[SASSquatch]

No it means they are losing money and the total loss divided by the number of vehicles they produce is what they are losing. They don’t literally lose $32k per vehicle they could.

Huh?

 

[Thedude]

No hybrids. They are a temporary solution at best.

How so? The electricity has to be produced somewhere to power an electric vehicle. A PHEV built as an EV with an onboard generator simply moves the electricity production location. Sure it’s less efficient and creates more pollutants than large scale power plants but it makes up for that in ease of use across nearly every demand. For many uses a PHEV is far more desirable and effective than a pure BEV.

 

[SASSquatch]

Whole lot of noise about nothing. Ford is pivoting to cheaper and smaller EVs because that’s what the consumers want and lacks.

Yes, Ford is pivoting to smaller and cheaper EVs which will compete with the R2/R3.

Ford also can afford to lose billions on their EV division because they are making money on their ICE lines.

Rivian can't afford to sustain the level of losses they are currently at without making money somewhere if demand doesn't accelerate.

From the Ford Earnings Report:

Ford Blue, the company’s internal-combustion-engine unit, made $1.17 billion before taxes during the quarter, down $1.1 billion from a year earlier. Ford Pro, the commercial vehicle unit, made $2.56 billion, $173 million above 2023. Model e, the electric vehicle unit, lost $1.14 billion, $63 million worse than a year ago.

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