How many R1T/S can Rivian deliver per day?

[MIG]

I am frustrated that I preordered over 2 years ago and don't seem to be getting any value for taking that risk.

You paid a fully refundable $1,000 for a place in line. That's neither a pre-order nor does it have risk.

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[CommodoreAmiga]

You paid a fully refundable $1,000 for a place in line. That's neither a pre-order nor does it have risk.

Not entirely accurate.

There is risk. Rivian could go belly-up. Given the investment by Amazon and others, it seems unlikely -- but it's possible, and therefore a risk. Even if Rivian doesn't go belly-up, they could refuse to refund. You'd have to go through the courts (taking time and money) to remedy; AKA "risk". Rivian could approve your refund but something may happen that causes the money to not get back to you. Perhaps you closed your account, card number changed and it's been so long the refund doesn't automatically transfer over, or data-entry error, or any other "issue". That'd be a frustrating battle between Rivian and the banks. AKA "risk". Heck, even the opportunity cost from not being able to hold your own $1,000 and invest in the market meets the definition of "risk".

Is the risk large? Most, including me, would argue "no". But to say there it "does not have risk" is disingenuous and disrespects others for their reasonable and rational feelings.

As for "pre-order", that's a grey area, imo. Rivian obviously had the lawyers involved and made a conscious effort to call them "Reservations". But in common parlance, I think there are more similarities than there are differences. I'm sure it wouldn't hold up in court, but it's understandable why someone might feel a bit hurt when you say their nearly-3-year-old "reservation" doesn't mean squat.

 

[MIG]

Not entirely accurate.

There is risk. Rivian could go belly-up. Given the investment by Amazon and others, it seems unlikely -- but it's possible, and therefore a risk. Even if Rivian doesn't go belly-up, they could refuse to refund. You'd have to go through the courts (taking time and money) to remedy; AKA "risk". Rivian could approve your refund but something may happen that causes the money to not get back to you. Perhaps you closed your account, card number changed and it's been so long the refund doesn't automatically transfer over, or data-entry error, or any other "issue". That'd be a frustrating battle between Rivian and the banks. AKA "risk". Heck, even the opportunity cost from not being able to hold your own $1,000 and invest in the market meets the definition of "risk".

Is the risk large? Most, including me, would argue "no". But to say there it "does not have risk" is disingenuous and disrespects others for their reasonable and rational feelings.

As for "pre-order", that's a grey area, imo. Rivian obviously had the lawyers involved and made a conscious effort to call them "Reservations". But in common parlance, I think there are more similarities than there are differences. I'm sure it wouldn't hold up in court, but it's understandable why someone might feel a bit hurt when you say their nearly-3-year-old "reservation" doesn't mean squat.

If you're $1,000 from financial stability maybe a $70,000+ commitment isn't the best choice.

A fully-refundable $1,000 in no way obligates Rivian to do dick. It's not a contract. No gray area whatsoever.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

If you're $1,000 from financial stability maybe a $70,000+ commitment isn't the best choice.

I never said that. Stop trying to put words in other peoples mouths.

 

[Eager2own]

If you're $1,000 from financial stability maybe a $70,000+ commitment isn't the best choice.

A fully-refundable $1,000 in no way obligates Rivian to do dick. It's not a contract. No gray area whatsoever.

It’s well-known that a contract is not enforceable unless recitals to the agreement provide, for example:

WHEREAS Customer wishes to make a deposit to secure a future reservation; and

WHEREAS Rivian agrees to do dick.

The Parties hereby agree as follows....

 

[SANZC02]

If you're $1,000 from financial stability maybe a $70,000+ commitment isn't the best choice.

A fully-refundable $1,000 in no way obligates Rivian to do dick. It's not a contract. No gray area whatsoever.

I look at these types of deposits like loaning money to family and friends, if you really need to be sure you can get it back don't put it out....

 

[cc84]

You paid a fully refundable $1,000 for a place in line. That's neither a pre-order nor does it have risk.

Anytime you give custody to another with your possessions, no matter what those possessions are, there is risk involved for getting them back.....only my opinion......However, according to Rivian, it is a preorder, but they don't have to sell you a vehicle and are required to refund your deposit, if they don't follow through. Whether you actually get the refund is dependent upon the integrity of the company and fear of a lawsuit.

 

[Gshenderson]

Anytime you give custody to another with your possessions, no matter what those possessions are, there is risk involved for getting them back.....only my opinion......However, according to Rivian, it is a preorder, but they don't have to sell you a vehicle and are required to refund your deposit, if they don't follow through. Whether you actually get the refund is dependent upon the integrity of the company and fear of a lawsuit.

It’s treated on their books as an unsecured, interest free loan. That allows them to use it as working capital vs. simply holding it in escrow. So essentially, you are an unsecured creditor, and your money is at risk if they file bankruptcy. You’d have to get in line behind any secured creditors. Given their financial backing, it seems the risk is very low, but there is some risk as others have stated.

 

[thrill]

"Your payment will be held by Rivian in a separate account designated solely for Preorders and released for application towards the final sales price of Your Selected Vehicle when you execute the Final Sales Agreement."

https://rivian.com/legal/preorder-agreement

 

[Gshenderson]

"Your payment will be held by Rivian in a separate account designated solely for Preorders and released for application towards the final sales price of Your Selected Vehicle when you execute the Final Sales Agreement."

https://rivian.com/legal/preorder-agreement

I stand corrected.

 

[thrill]

I stand corrected.

To be clear, from their careful wording, this does not appear to be held in escrow, which requires a third party. But they do clearly state it's segregated and not used for any operations.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

To be clear, from their careful wording, this does not appear to be held in escrow, which requires a third party. But they do clearly state it's segregated and not used for any operations.

There are multiple definitions of "escrow".

One does involve a third party -- such as when you sell property and use an escrow company to receive the property and funds and then disperse both to the other party.

Another is simply segregating funds -- also known as "impound". For example, some people have a portion of their monthly mortgage payment applied to an "escrow/impound" account for the payment of insurance and taxes. These funds are still held by the mortgage servicer -- not a third party.

 

[MIG]

There's a "preorder" which can be a contract and there's this, which is basically just a gauge of interest and a promise to do something at a later point in time, namely allow you to order a vehicle when available. But it's not really binding on either party.

And, duh, there are certainly circumstances where the $1,000 could be "at risk," but given the high level of investment in Rivian by some heavy hitters that was somewhat minimized. As for the opportunity cost of not having that $1,000 to get in on the ground floor of the next bitcoin or some other nonsense, I'd reiterate that if the $1,000 was a significant sum for someone then spending $70,000 or more on an untested car from an untested company would not be a good decision in the first place.

 

[blturner]

Apologies to EVTRUcking for accidentally hijacking your thread.
The spirited opposing views expressed here are similar to the debate I have had in my head.

 

[DuckTruck]

This has been an interesting thread to follow. I always love the passion our group brings to this Forum and the spirited nature of these conversations.

When I saw the title of this thread, it took me back to the tour of the factory. As RJ showed us the R1 production line, he said that once they've dialed in all of the steps along the way, that line should be rolling out a new R1T or R1S every four minutes. He said with two shifts per day of 9 hours each, the line should be continuously flowing at that rate, which should mean about 270 R1 vehicles ready to ship and deliver each day.

While they're fine-tuning the process, they have 15 slots in a row on the line with vehicles that flow through the various stations. As they meticulously assemble these early vehicles, the line is crawling. After they do a batch of 15, they meet to figure out what they learned and work with the team to improve the process for the next round of 15. As they fine-tune each step in the production process, the speed will increase. RJ said once they have all the processes dialed in, every slot will be filled with a vehicle, with that goal of one vehicle produced every four minutes.

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