UAW is coming after Rivian

[Dave711]

The union bankrupted GM. The taxpayers, stockholders and bondholders paid for the overpayment of GM's union and non-union employees. I was a bondholder. It is what it is.

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[RWerksman]

The union bankrupted GM. The taxpayers, stockholders and bondholders paid for the overpayment of GM's union and non-union employees. I was a bondholder. It is what it is.

Many, many things led to the GM bankruptcy. The union had a part, but at the end of the day it was a story of unintended collaboration and outside factors.

 

[R1TS]

For me it's because there are two types of unions. The first type provide some benefit to the company. Usually by training and providing continuing education including industry and safety training. Think trade union. They have their own schools for training the workers during their apprenticeship. Usually tradesworkers need to have years long apprenticeships and the unions train their guys better and require more school than the non union shops. I've worked in both, I can speak to this personally.

The UAW is the other type. Their workers are basically just throwing a tantrum for money they don't really deserve because they aren't providing anything extra to a company. Do that long enough and you'll bleed the company dry. There's only so much cost that can be put into cars and still have them compete with overseas manufacturer's prices. Do you think China won't just flood us with cheap cars and take over our markets if the price gets high enough? That's not good for our economy is it?

UAW is going to kill the American auto industry, and that, in my opinion, the hate of them is deserved. Greed that will ruin our economy. We don't want to cede our economic power to China, they will make us pay for it. All those other things you mentioned can't just be outsourced to China so the higher prices won't get Chinese competitors that just take our market over.

So, do you also equally hate some of these other unions that aren’t there to train their members? Teachers, police, nurses, public transportation, postal service, etc?

 

[R1TS]

Now imagine what happens when US labor gets even more expensive. Then all those jobs go away, which crashes the price of labor due to the surplus of workers now looking for a job. So everyone who's in that lower tier of employment will take a hit to the pocketbook and ripples will be felt pretty far up the employment ladder because now these people who were spending money aren't so the retail sector all the way up the chain is going to take a hit. Not to mention most of those factory workers aren't going to be able to find any other job paying them the same amount with their qualifications which is going to mean reeducation for those who can or two entry level jobs working a million hours a week or a huge reduction in lifestyle.

Basically everyone loses thanks to UAW greed.

You underestimate employment.

There will always be a fresh new pool of people looking for jobs and aren’t asking what industry vet pay is. Manufacturing jobs don’t require one to be very technically savvy.

 

[Singletracker]

IMHO, there is something wrong with the picture when corporate execs are making tens of millions and, in some cases, hundreds of millions of dollars per year, while their employees can barely make enough to live on. Personally, I find it hard to have much respect or sympathy for that corporate culture.

Some companies will spread the wealth around, while others just hord the bounty at the top. If a company doesn’t want to become the target of a union, maybe they should adopt a culture of taking better care of their valued and critical employees. Maybe they should reign in the simply outrageous salaries that some of these execs are making. It shouldn’t be an us versus them situation. I like the idea of a team, even if it’s a bit idealistic. I think that is the philosophy that Rivian holds, at least for now. If Rivian employees are fairly compensated, valued, respected, and offered a path to a better future, maybe the UAW will find no takers at Rivian. Just sayin’.

 

[vandy1981]

OEMs are already manufacturing in Mexico and importing cars into the U.S. to avoid manufacturing unions.

Some (all?) Ford and GM factories in Mexico are unionized.

 

[CharonPDX]

How has Tesla kept UAW out of their plants?

Union busting.

All I hope is that RJ doesn’t follow Gated Rat’s lead there. Let the employees decide without undue influence. If they decide to unionize: so be it.

 

[mkhuffman]

If CNN can be believed...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/business/tesla-union-uaw-strike/index.html#:~:text=Hostile to unions&text=The company has taken a,employees because they support unionizing.

In general, no, CNN cannot be believed.

 

[mkhuffman]

For me it's because there are two types of unions. The first type provide some benefit to the company. Usually by training and providing continuing education including industry and safety training. Think trade union. They have their own schools for training the workers during their apprenticeship. Usually tradesworkers need to have years long apprenticeships and the unions train their guys better and require more school than the non union shops. I've worked in both, I can speak to this personally.

The UAW is the other type. Their workers are basically just throwing a tantrum for money they don't really deserve because they aren't providing anything extra to a company. Do that long enough and you'll bleed the company dry. There's only so much cost that can be put into cars and still have them compete with overseas manufacturer's prices. Do you think China won't just flood us with cheap cars and take over our markets if the price gets high enough? That's not good for our economy is it?

UAW is going to kill the American auto industry, and that, in my opinion, the hate of them is deserved. Greed that will ruin our economy. We don't want to cede our economic power to China, they will make us pay for it. All those other things you mentioned can't just be outsourced to China so the higher prices won't get Chinese competitors that just take our market over.

Teacher unions are destroying our public education system. Give them long enough, and all unions will destroy the industries they infect.

Make all unions voluntary and then we will see how much actual value they add. The ones that add value will survive, the ones that don't will die.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

IMHO, there is something wrong with the picture when corporate execs are making tens of millions and, in some cases, hundreds of millions of dollars per year, while their employees can barely make enough to live on. Personally, I find it hard to have much respect or sympathy for that corporate culture.

Some companies will spread the wealth around, while others just hord the bounty at the top. If a company doesn’t want to become the target of a union, maybe they should adopt a culture of taking better care of their valued and critical employees. Maybe they should reign in the simply outrageous salaries that some of these execs are making. It shouldn’t be an us versus them situation. I like the idea of a team, even if it’s a bit idealistic. I think that is the philosophy that Rivian holds, at least for now. If Rivian employees are fairly compensated, valued, respected, and offered a path to a better future, maybe the UAW will find no takers at Rivian. Just sayin’.

This argument is tired and doesn't hold much weight. Different jobs pay different amounts based on the responsibility and skill level of said job. Being someone who hires and trains entry level workers there is a reason why those people make what they do.

I pay above average for my industry and the most basic of stuff still is like climbing a mountain to get. Finding people who simply show up every day is a challenge. If they show up and do their job they already are in the top 10% of workers which means they don't stay entry level at that "barely surviving" stage.

That pool of workers consists of people just starting out and people who cannot do basic stuff like show up to work in work appropriate clothing or on time. The people who can do these basics wind up not being in that pool very long they all get promoted.

Making cars on an assembly line isn't very difficult or skilled. Its an entry level job. Those who can do the basics move up. Tesla has some line workers who are millionaires now thanks to stock options and anyone worth a shit isn't in the barely getting by category.

Meanwhile these executives have much more responsibility and their skill level is much higher and jobs are highly competitive. Some of them suck too, and those ones get fired or their companies go bankrupt but some of them are brilliant and generate wealth for our entire economy.

People like Bezos or yes even Musk have generated many more billions into our economy than they have made. That helps our country compete on a world stage and pays our people. Its way more important and difficult of a job than stamping car parts which is why they make what they do.

 

[PBRAZ]

These threads always bring up three main topics of misinformation:

1) Myth: If the c-suite salary spend was reduced, this would somehow provide workers with better wages.

Fact: The head of GM made $29M last year. Even if he worked for free, that would bump all 167,000 employees' salaries by a whopping, drumroll, 9 cents/hr. Even if you eliminated all the top execs' salaries at the company, workers would only get maybe a few extra bucks/hour.

2) Myth: the increase in salaries is going to cause car prices to rise dramatically.

Fact: labor accounts for 5% to 10% of a car's cost. The largest cost to build a car is the materials, followed by overhead. Even if workers made $100/hour, it wouldn't significantly move the needle on a car's sticker price.


3)Myth: Increases in build costs at The Big 3 automatically get passed on to the customer.

Fact: Not if they want to sell cars they don't. Cost increases often come from margin and do not entirely make their way to the sticker.

 

[Count Orlok]

outrage de jure

 

[Donald Stanfield]

These threads always bring up three main topics of misinformation:

1) Myth: If the c-suite salary spend was reduced, this would somehow provide workers with better wages.

Fact: The head of GM made $29M last year. Even if he worked for free, that would bump all 167,000 employees' salaries by a whopping, drumroll, 9 cents/hr. Even if you eliminated all the top execs' salaries at the company, workers would only get maybe a few extra bucks/hour.

2) Myth: the increase in salaries is going to cause car prices to rise dramatically.

Fact: labor accounts for 5% to 10% of a car's cost. The largest cost to build a car is the materials, followed by overhead. Even if workers made $100/hour, it wouldn't significantly move the needle on a car's sticker price.


3)Myth: Increases in build costs at The Big 3 automatically get passed on to the customer.

Fact: Not if they want to sell cars they don't. Cost increases often come from margin and do not entirely make their way to the sticker.

The margin on cars is pretty low already, and there are foreign competitors with much lower costs of production than here. Unless we make some pretty aggressive tariffs on foreign products these goods set the pricing benchmark. Therefore your myth 3 isn't really a myth but a reality of where pricing is now.

As to your myth 2, again the same factor matters. These car companies don't exist in a vacuum. They live among nonunion competitors, so if the union-made car is 2k dollars more than the nonunion car is for no additional generated value, they will lose market share to nonunion companies. When they sell fewer cars, their profit decreases because the profit margin per car is small. Auto companies make money on volume; look at the Rivian ramp, which is predicated on increased production. As production has increased, the loss per vehicle has decreased but hasn't yet gone away as production isn't enough.

There are fixed overheads based on staffing and distribution networks for auto companies to exist, which are considerable costs. You have to employ all sorts of people, from engineers to accountants, who don't make cars but have important jobs to keep your company running. These people are overhead expenses, and their salaries must come from that low-margin vehicle. Especially today, with the high ass interest rates, people cannot afford new cars as is, and sales are down.

Giving these people the raises they are asking for puts the companies in question at a real risk for not being profitable. Especially companies like Rivian who are already struggling to reach profitability. The last thing they need is a union, it will kill their company.

 

[oskeei]

Normal needs the Rivian plant more than Rivian needs Normal.
There is not much for work there in Normal.

I go to Normal at least once a month, sometimes more for Non-Rivian related stuff. I was there when the Mitsubishi plant was running, after the plant closed, and what it is like now that Rivian plant is there. I'd guess Illinois State University would be most critical, but Rivian is a very close second. The improvements to the city have tracked to Rivian especially on the west side of town closer to the factory. Normal DEFINITELY needs Rivian and even in a very red state like Illinois, I don't see the politician standing by and letting anything develop that would cause Rivian to want to leave.

The state has invested in Rivian and Rivian has invested much more to the area. I guess the only thing I could see happen is Rivian builds things up, then sells it to some other company and moves all of their operations to Georgia when it's fully up and running.

 

[Dark-Fx]

2) Myth: the increase in salaries is going to cause car prices to rise dramatically.

Fact: labor accounts for 5% to 10% of a car's cost. The largest cost to build a car is the materials, followed by overhead. Even if workers made $100/hour, it wouldn't significantly move the needle on a car's sticker price.


3)Myth: Increases in build costs at The Big 3 automatically get passed on to the customer.

Fact: Not if they want to sell cars they don't. Cost increases often come from margin and do not entirely make their way to the sticker.

Fact: It's easy to just call something a myth because you aren't willing to understand or absorb all of the nuance of the situation.

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