Several Concerns

[Casotakar]

Ow, I just hurt myself with how violently my eyes rolled!

Did you seriously just say that the "useful life" of ANY EV is "0"??

That must be the most over-dramaticized statement I've seen in a looooong time.

There are Millions of people in their Teslas/Bolts/Leafs that are laughing at you.

I am not saying the car cannot be driven, but when the replacement for the Lithiums is over 28K for the Rivian (at today's prices), and no guarantee there will be a suitable transfer after the warranty has expired, that makes the vehicle worth $0 to another purchaser. It's similar to a repair bill for a 2010 Toyota Corolla of $28,000 when totaled. Its not worth repairing. That is what I mean by $0.

Of course if battery costs come down to under $5K in 7-8 years (plus labor) then certainly it's worth it, but no manufacturer is going to stand behind that hypothetical.

By waiting 2 - 3 years, the price of the vehicle will come down and an accurate picture of what holds for new battery technology comes into focus, we will see commitments from people like me, who buy performance vehicles, to shell out $65K for a new one. I just saying...

Sponsored

 

[Jarico75]

I am not saying the car cannot be driven, but when the replacement for the Lithiums is over 28K for the Rivian (at today's prices), and no guarantee there will be a suitable transfer after the warranty has expired, that makes the vehicle worth $0 to another purchaser. It's similar to a repair bill for a 2010 Toyota Corolla of $28,000 when totaled. Its not worth repairing. That is what I mean by $0.

Of course if battery costs come down to under $5K in 7-8 years (plus labor) then certainly it's worth it, but no manufacturer is going to stand behind that hypothetical.

By waiting 2 - 3 years, the price of the vehicle will come down and an accurate picture of what holds for new battery technology comes into focus, we will see commitments from people like me, who buy performance vehicles, to shell out $65K for a new one. I just saying...

It looks like you have an assumption that at the 10 year mark the vehicle will no longer be able to drive or hold a charge. That is not true. Ten years is the estimate as to when the car will no longer hold 80% or greater of its original capacity. I have a friend who purchased a 2010 Nissan leaf 3 years ago. Today he gets about 55-60 miles of range from an overnight charge. The original published mileage was 73 miles in 2010. He drives 20 miles round trip to work each day and has plenty of mileage left for a random errand. He fully expects that the batteries will continue to degrade overtime. EVs are not worth 0 when they reach the 10 year mark.
Looking at a traditional ICE vehicle, a 2010 Honda ridgeline sold for 32,000 new. Today with 132k miles they sell for 5k to 10k. A 40kwh Tesla Model S sold in 2012 (As far back as I could go for Tesla) for 60k. Using 132k mileage estimates it can sell for 15 to 20k. There are a quite a few other items you can factor in, but using this simple example, at 10 years, most cars have very little value compared to their original price.

 

[ajdelange]

The people of California voted for politicians who forced practices on the state's utilities that resulted in very high (relative to the rest of the country) prices and an unstable system. You can't fix that but you can charge your car when the grid is down. The simplest way is with a backup generator but you don't want to do that if you can avoid it because it is very energy inefficient, emits CO2 and propane is expensive. The other route is PV cells but the gotcha there is that PV systems shut down when the utility goes down (for safety reasons) unless they have substantial battery and that is expensive. And, of course, they don't work when the sun doesn't shine. The answer to several cloudy days in a row is more battery = more $.

To be really comfortable you want solar with battery backup and a generator to back that up. I putting all that in but if I had realized how much it would ultimately cost I probably wouldn't have started the project.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

I am not saying the car cannot be driven, but when the replacement for the Lithiums is over 28K for the Rivian (at today's prices), and no guarantee there will be a suitable transfer after the warranty has expired, that makes the vehicle worth $0 to another purchaser. It's similar to a repair bill for a 2010 Toyota Corolla of $28,000 when totaled. Its not worth repairing. That is what I mean by $0.

Of course if battery costs come down to under $5K in 7-8 years (plus labor) then certainly it's worth it, but no manufacturer is going to stand behind that hypothetical.

By waiting 2 - 3 years, the price of the vehicle will come down and an accurate picture of what holds for new battery technology comes into focus, we will see commitments from people like me, who buy performance vehicles, to shell out $65K for a new one. I just saying...

I can't decide if you're trolling, or if you just have that "perfect-storm" combination of negative attitude and misinformation? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (for now) and assume you're just a worry-wort with bad information.

Teslas have been on the road for over a decade. The Model S is basically 10 years old, at this point. They are NOT needing $28k battery replacements. There have been a few whose batteries have lost considerable capacity or even failed, entirely, but the aftermarket has created solutions. There are companies that repair your existing battery pack. It's not like EVERY cell magically stops working... They disassemble the modules, test the cells, and replace just the cells that need replacement. The Majority of owners need NO special service, and the few that do typically spend just a few thousand dollars.

ICE vehicles have their own problems. What does a transmission rebuild cost? Engine rebuild? New catalytic converters? These easily exceed both the frequency and cost of most EV battery repairs.

And within 10 years pretty much every ICE vehicle will require a timing belt or chain/guides replacement -- typically costing one to two thousand dollars... On top of the oil changes, spark plugs, transmission services, etc.

EVs are cheaper to maintain. Period. They're not $0 maintenance... But they're still cheaper than ICE vehicles.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

There was a hack on the gas pipeline that caused mass-outages and unavailability of gasoline on the East Coast, just a few weeks ago. For nearly two weeks it was extremely difficult to get fuel. I had to drive about 30 minutes and passed dozens of stations before I found one that had gas. And when I did find gas, it wasn't the premium that my engine requires.

Everything you mentioned is a serious threat to most of our infrastructure -- not limited to BEVs.

 

[DucRider]

If you look at an ICE vehicle and see the engine and transmission have a 5 year 100K mile warranty, do you then look at the cost of both those and assume they will need to be replaced at that point?
Bad battery cells can be replaced, engines and transmissions can be rebuilt.

Nothing on a vehicle has a useful life exactly equal to the warranty length.

 

[Smithery]

Maybe you've heard some horror stories from owners of the original 2010 Leaf, whose EPA range was 73 miles and now owners can barely get 40 miles out of them?

That's not what Rivian (or any other realistic player on the market) is selling in 2021.

Personally, I'm a huge advocate of "buy the biggest battery you can afford so you can take long road trips at realistic speeds *and* counter battery degradation"

But your take seems to be so extraordinarily conservative as to not be based in reality.

Example:
2013 performance Model S with 750,000 miles on it

The owner bought it used with 18,000 miles on it then put on the next 730,000 himself.
And that's 2012 battery technology and production.

I expect degradation in my R1T, just like I've seen in my 4 year old Model X.

I also expect to keep driving each of them for 10+ years, easy, because the degradation won't hinder that.

In California: With our crazy car culture, dense concrentration of EV ownership, super protective "right to repair" laws for cars, and the state pushing hard on EVs... I actually fully expect a battery replacement to be available from a 3rd party for each of our EVs once they're a decade old.

But we aren't making any purchase decisions based on that assumption. When 10 years old each will still drive just fine.

 

[Pioneer52]

I really do thank everybody already driving an EV for the massive info provided in this forum. It made my decision so much easier which vehicle to buy next.
I have been living off the grid for more than 10 years and people who do know that the idea of substantially charging an EV from a solar system will take an extremely large array.
With more EVs on the roads the power grid will be even more overwhelmed than it has been already at times.
I do a lot of backcountry trail traveling and the lack of charging stations in remote areas is scary.
Every little change ( Off-Road tires, roof tent, weight) to the EV will supposedly cut down the range, and the range angst that has been quite prominent in the discussions is probably more than justified.
I do not even want to go into whether EVs are as green as proclaimed.
The lack of information about the interior (as much as I like the exterior, the interior as I have seen it looks cheap) and the UI is strange.
Anyway, I will give up my reservation for an R1S in favor of an ICE. Somebody else can move up one spot.

 

[ajdelange]

I have been living off the grid for more than 10 years and people who do know that the idea of substantially charging an EV from a solar system will take an extremely large array.

I guess that depends on how you define "extremely large". Let's say you have an electric truck which consumes half a kWh per mile and you drive it the average 10,000 miles per year. You need 5,000 kWh to do that. Suppose you have a 10 kW array. Then you would need 5000/10 = 500 hr FSE (Full Sun Equivalent) per year. That's only 1.37 hr/day. Unless you live in a particularly gloomy place that's certainly going to be available. Is 10 kW an "extremely large" array? You could do it with 2.74 hrs FSE on a 5 kW array or with 5.48 hrs FSE on 2.5 kW of PV.

I plan to charge 2 BEVs (and maybe 3 if I don't trade in the X when the CT arrives) on a 45 panel (13 kW) array and air condition and possibly even heat the garage with it (at least to the extent of running gas heaters). As I can't drive 3 vehicles at the same time my total consumption should be for 10,000 miles. Keep in mind that the big miles are picked up on road trips where only the first leg is charge at home and, of course, it doesn't have to be.

With more EVs on the roads the power grid will be even more overwhelmed than it has been already at times.

Once you realize that 5 kW isn't an "extremely large" array you will, presumably install one and not worry about utility mismanagement.''

I do a lot of backcountry trail traveling and the lack of charging stations in remote areas is scary.

I think it depends on whether you are trying to talk yourself into or out of a BEV. You seem to be trying to talk yourself out of it so yes, scary. Someone who really wants to go BEV will figure out how to get a charge in the places he wants to go. Every electrical outlet in the country is a potential charging station.

Every little change ( Off-Road tires, roof tent, weight) to the EV will supposedly cut down the range,

Some little changes like following wind and negative grade increase the range. Others, like head wind, upgrade and stuff on the substrate which the wheels have to push out of the way, even water, will decrease it. Towing will decrease it. Same as in an ICE vehicle. Same physics at play.

and the range angst that has been quite prominent in the discussions is probably more than justified.

You won't find this among those of us who actually drive BEV (though I am sure that if you look long enough you will find someone). Most of us tend to laugh at our naivete WRT range anxiety when we started thinking about BEV.

Among those waiting there is a common misconception that you plug in and drive off going as far as the number on the Monroney sticker. Common sense says this is nonsense but common sense is, alas, a rather rare thing.

 

[Pioneer52]

I guess that depends on how you define "extremely large". Let's say you have an electric truck which consumes half a kWh per mile and you drive it the average 10,000 miles per year. You need 5,000 kWh to do that. Suppose you have a 10 kW array. Then you would need 5000/10 = 500 hr FSE (Full Sun Equivalent) per year. That's only 1.37 hr/day. Unless you live in a particularly gloomy place that's certainly going to be available. Is 10 kW an "extremely large" array? You could do it with 2.74 hrs FSE on a 5 kW array or with 5.48 hrs FSE on 2.5 kW of PV.

I plan to charge 2 BEVs (and maybe 3 if I don't trade in the X when the CT arrives) on a 45 panel (13 kW) array and air condition and possibly even heat the garage with it (at least to the extent of running gas heaters). As I can't drive 3 vehicles at the same time my total consumption should be for 10,000 miles. Keep in mind that the big miles are picked up on road trips where only the first leg is charge at home and, of course, it doesn't have to be.


Once you realize that 5 kW isn't an "extremely large" array you will, presumably install one and not worry about utility mismanagement.''

I think it depends on whether you are trying to talk yourself into or out of a BEV. You seem to be trying to talk yourself out of it so yes, scary. Someone who really wants to go BEV will figure out how to get a charge in the places he wants to go. Every electrical outlet in the country is a potential charging station.



Some little changes like following wind and negative grade increase the range. Others, like head wind, upgrade and stuff on the substrate which the wheels have to push out of the way, even water, will decrease it. Towing will decrease it. Same as in an ICE vehicle. Same physics at play.


You won't find this among those of us who actually drive BEV (though I am sure that if you look long enough you will find someone). Most of us tend to laugh at our naivete WRT range anxiety when we started thinking about BEV.

Among those waiting there is a common misconception that you plug in and drive off going as far as the number on the Monroney sticker. Common sense says this is nonsense but common sense is, alas, a rather rare thing.

I guess that depends on how you define "extremely large". Let's say you have an electric truck which consumes half a kWh per mile and you drive it the average 10,000 miles per year. You need 5,000 kWh to do that. Suppose you have a 10 kW array. Then you would need 5000/10 = 500 hr FSE (Full Sun Equivalent) per year. That's only 1.37 hr/day. Unless you live in a particularly gloomy place that's certainly going to be available. Is 10 kW an "extremely large" array? You could do it with 2.74 hrs FSE on a 5 kW array or with 5.48 hrs FSE on 2.5 kW of PV.

I plan to charge 2 BEVs (and maybe 3 if I don't trade in the X when the CT arrives) on a 45 panel (13 kW) array and air condition and possibly even heat the garage with it (at least to the extent of running gas heaters). As I can't drive 3 vehicles at the same time my total consumption should be for 10,000 miles. Keep in mind that the big miles are picked up on road trips where only the first leg is charge at home and, of course, it doesn't have to be.


Once you realize that 5 kW isn't an "extremely large" array you will, presumably install one and not worry about utility mismanagement.''

I think it depends on whether you are trying to talk yourself into or out of a BEV. You seem to be trying to talk yourself out of it so yes, scary. Someone who really wants to go BEV will figure out how to get a charge in the places he wants to go. Every electrical outlet in the country is a potential charging station.



Some little changes like following wind and negative grade increase the range. Others, like head wind, upgrade and stuff on the substrate which the wheels have to push out of the way, even water, will decrease it. Towing will decrease it. Same as in an ICE vehicle. Same physics at play.


You won't find this among those of us who actually drive BEV (though I am sure that if you look long enough you will find someone). Most of us tend to laugh at our naivete WRT range anxiety when we started thinking about BEV.

Among those waiting there is a common misconception that you plug in and drive off going as far as the number on the Monroney sticker. Common sense says this is nonsense but common sense is, alas, a rather rare thing.

Thanks for the eleborate response.
Like I said I am living off grid for quite some time and your calculations seem as theoretical as some of the range figures of EVs. A 10 KW array is 33 300 W panels. You gotta have the space to install them.
I have a 4.8 KW array on my garage and on a hot Socal day I can produce 24 KW. Heat drastically reduces the output of solar panels! Dust too.
I need 12 KW to run my house and recharge my batteries (that is without AC), which leaves 12 KW max for charging the vehicle.
If I go 80 miles in a RIVIAN (with 21" wheels without off-road tires, because KO2s will most likely cut the range ) I will use 37 KW min and it will take more than 3 days to recharge the battery, or to put it in a different perspective I can charge app 25 miles per day, which for me is barely the distance to the next reasonable charger.
Check the the charging station map for the California desert or Utah (not even mentioning Baja California ), unless Rivian puts in quite a few chargers, and I made some suggestions in another thread, It will be very easy to run out of power in the boondocks.
I really like the outside of the R1S as well as the off-road capability and I actually tried to talk myself into buying it but for where I live and what I am doing it seems totally impractical.
I also find that RIVIAN's dealing with their customers is not very professional. It is weird, to say the least, to present a video about the camping kitchen before showing detailed pictures or videos of the interior of the truck or give us an idea of the UI.
In regard to the range, there have been countless posts in this forum dealing with this Subject and a lot of them reflect the "angst" I was referring to.
I can see that with time of driving an EV you get used to a different way of planning a trip and charging times get shorter too, but it will still take a while until chargers are available in all far corners of the deserts and mountains even of the US.
I am still.looking forward to seeing the first RIVIAN on the road and I congratulate the first owners to be even if they were not the first ones to reserve one ( which is another oddity).

 

[Casotakar]

I can't decide if you're trolling, or if you just have that "perfect-storm" combination of negative attitude and misinformation? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (for now) and assume you're just a worry-wort with bad information.

Teslas have been on the road for over a decade. The Model S is basically 10 years old, at this point. They are NOT needing $28k battery replacements. There have been a few whose batteries have lost considerable capacity or even failed, entirely, but the aftermarket has created solutions. There are companies that repair your existing battery pack. It's not like EVERY cell magically stops working... They disassemble the modules, test the cells, and replace just the cells that need replacement. The Majority of owners need NO special service, and the few that do typically spend just a few thousand dollars.

ICE vehicles have their own problems. What does a transmission rebuild cost? Engine rebuild? New catalytic converters? These easily exceed both the frequency and cost of most EV battery repairs.

And within 10 years pretty much every ICE vehicle will require a timing belt or chain/guides replacement -- typically costing one to two thousand dollars... On top of the oil changes, spark plugs, transmission services, etc.

EVs are cheaper to maintain. Period. They're not $0 maintenance... But they're still cheaper than ICE vehicles.

I hope that is the case. Just wish Rivian would release more detail information on these types of issues prior to me depositing $1,000.00. I had a deposit on the Lucid Air Touring, but decided to pull it, not because of these issues, but because I wanted an EV SUV. It was within this thread that someone said that RIVIAN CANNOT upgrade the current battery makeup when they expire, even if better and more powerful batteries come available and that it would cost $30K to replace them at today's prices. I have no information from Rivian that corrects or addresses these issues and to use OTHER manufacturer examples addressing these issues gives me no comfort.

Price of the repair and replacement is what gave me pause, and I could not find any information with details to these important issues for example: 1) Battery Life after warranty and percentage of degradation during use; 2) Replacement Cost of the batteries; 3) Why can't the current battery makeup be replaced with better battery tech, which will absolutely happen in the next 3 - 4 years (and the probable cost of those replacements); 4) Why won't Rivian make the newer tech compatible within is current structure so we can get, not only the newer tech, but the invariably better and longer range??

The older post to this thread stated you are stuck with the current battery makeup for range since they can only replace the current battery that came with the model you bought with the same type you have now (only newer), therefore get the most powerful now if you want the longer range and power. That makes no sense to me. If Rivian comes up with a solid state or another more powerful battery makeup why can't you just interchange those with your old ones or even the ones that came with the higher priced model?? Sounds like intentional obsolescence and without more detailed info on these issues I am not sure how anyone would not be concerned. Their competition reads these threads to find out what consumers and I hope that incentivizes Rivian to address them first.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

I hope that is the case. Just wish Rivian would release more detail information on these types of issues prior to me depositing $1,000.00. I had a deposit on the Lucid Air Touring, but decided to pull it, not because of these issues, but because I wanted an EV SUV. It was within this thread that someone said that RIVIAN CANNOT upgrade the current battery makeup when they expire, even if better and more powerful batteries come available and that it would cost $30K to replace them at today's prices. I have no information from Rivian that corrects or addresses these issues and to use OTHER manufacturer examples addressing these issues gives me no comfort.

Rivian has shared their warranty details -- including on the battery. So if you haven't put your deposit down, yet, then I'd say they've shared the info you're asking for. For those of us that put $1k down before getting that info, it was really to save our place in line -- the deposits are refundable.

As far as replacing the battery technology/chemistry... I would put it this way: Anything is possible. However, it is not plausible because it likely won't make commercial/financial sense. You'll get 8 years and 175,000 miles of guaranteed (warranty) coverage on your Rivian battery. Realistically, the pack will last much longer than that. By the time you actually need a replacement, it most likely won't be worth investing the cost of a new pack + charging modules into the vehicle. Just like most owners wouldn't spend big on a new crate engine and transmission for a 15 year old vehicle, because the resale value of the vehicle doesn't warrant that investment. Instead, you replace the few defective cells (not he entire battery pack).

Price of the repair and replacement is what gave me pause, and I could not find any information with details to these important issues for example: 1) Battery Life after warranty and percentage of degradation during use; 2) Replacement Cost of the batteries; 3) Why can't the current battery makeup be replaced with better battery tech, which will absolutely happen in the next 3 - 4 years (and the probable cost of those replacements); 4) Why won't Rivian make the newer tech compatible within is current structure so we can get, not only the newer tech, but the invariably better and longer range??

1) No one can tell you RIVIAN-specific info, at this time. However, there's LOTS of info on Tesla and other brands. There are posts on this forum you can read where people discuss it, or you can check out the many Tesla-specific forums and websites where it's been discussed ad infinitum.

2) Again, no one can tell you RIVIAN-specific battery replacement/repair costs. However, there are many examples for Tesla, and that at least gives you some general ideas. Gruber Motors is an aftermarket company that specializes in EV battery repair. They remove the battery modules from the EV, open them up, then test each individual cell. They replace the defective cells, then button it all back up and send you on your way. Here's an article where one customer was told (by Tesla) that they needed a $20k battery replacement. Gruber Motors did it for $5k. I expect those prices to come down, over time, as more competition in the repair space comes online. https://insideevs.com/features/457694/tesla-model-s-15000-deal-bad-battery-cell/

3) It CAN be done. The issue is that it doesn't make commercial/financial sense. Rivian has a desire to earn a reputation for durability, but they must also balance that against selling new vehicles and constantly evolving their product lineup. It's a rare occurrence in the automotive industry to find a manufacturer offering significant upgrades to bring older models up to current technology. Buy the vehicle for the tech it has TODAY and enjoy it. In 10-15 years, buy a new one and enjoy that leap in technology. If you spend life worried about the "next big thing" you'll NEVER buy a product because there is ALWAYS something new/big "right around the corner".

4) This feels like an extension of #3, above. They could but it doesn't make sense for them to do so. Few people would pay for it, and it isn't worth their R&D time. Think back over the years and there have been lots of innovations in the automotive world. Fuel injection was a massive improvement over carbs. Airbags were a revolutionary safety tool. Disc brakes were demonstrably better than drum brakes. Did vehicles with the old technology become instantly worthless? No. In fact, you can still buy some vehicles with drum brakes (looking at you Toyota). There is constant innovation, but it won't make a R1 a bad purchase. If you want a Rivian and you can afford it and it meets your needs as-is then buy it and enjoy it! If the range doesn't meet your needs, then you may have to wait.

The older post to this thread stated you are stuck with the current battery makeup for range since they can only replace the current battery that came with the model you bought with the same type you have now (only newer), therefore get the most powerful now if you want the longer range and power. That makes no sense to me. If Rivian comes up with a solid state or another more powerful battery makeup why can't you just interchange those with your old ones or even the ones that came with the higher priced model?? Sounds like intentional obsolescence and without more detailed info on these issues I am not sure how anyone would not be concerned. Their competition reads these threads to find out what consumers and I hope that incentivizes Rivian to address them first.

It isn't worth their cost to R&D those options. I doubt enough people would pay to make it commercially viable. You also should consider the liability and testing involved in allowing such changes. It doesn't make sense for them to do it, as a company.

It's perhaps a bit like the people who want a 6-speed manual vehicle. They're quite a vocal bunch, but it's a SMALL bunch. And they rarely put their money where their mouth is. Outside of some very niche vehicles, any manufacturer who tries to appease this group ends up losing money. Even when the "enthusiasts" applaud the manufacturer they pretty much never put their money where their mouth was and actually bought it. So manufacturers have almost entirely stopped building this type of product. A small group of people complains, and the manufacturers and rest of the world go about their business.

Or perhaps a more-direct analogy is the flat-towing and V2H crowd. Based on what you can read on this forum, you might think that 98% of the world owns $350k mega-RVs and DEMANDS that they can flat tow their vehicle and power their McMansions from the traction batteries. Sure, a few people fit that description -- but it's such a SMALL percentage of actual customers. Rivian needs to focus on getting a product to market, and that means satisfying 99% of people -- not 0.001%.

 

[Casotakar]

Rivian has shared their warranty details -- including on the battery. So if you haven't put your deposit down, yet, then I'd say they've shared the info you're asking for. For those of us that put $1k down before getting that info, it was really to save our place in line -- the deposits are refundable.

As far as replacing the battery technology/chemistry... I would put it this way: Anything is possible. However, it is not plausible because it likely won't make commercial/financial sense. You'll get 8 years and 175,000 miles of guaranteed (warranty) coverage on your Rivian battery. Realistically, the pack will last much longer than that. By the time you actually need a replacement, it most likely won't be worth investing the cost of a new pack + charging modules into the vehicle. Just like most owners wouldn't spend big on a new crate engine and transmission for a 15 year old vehicle, because the resale value of the vehicle doesn't warrant that investment. Instead, you replace the few defective cells (not he entire battery pack).


1) No one can tell you RIVIAN-specific info, at this time. However, there's LOTS of info on Tesla and other brands. There are posts on this forum you can read where people discuss it, or you can check out the many Tesla-specific forums and websites where it's been discussed ad infinitum.

2) Again, no one can tell you RIVIAN-specific battery replacement/repair costs. However, there are many examples for Tesla, and that at least gives you some general ideas. Gruber Motors is an aftermarket company that specializes in EV battery repair. They remove the battery modules from the EV, open them up, then test each individual cell. They replace the defective cells, then button it all back up and send you on your way. Here's an article where one customer was told (by Tesla) that they needed a $20k battery replacement. Gruber Motors did it for $5k. I expect those prices to come down, over time, as more competition in the repair space comes online. https://insideevs.com/features/457694/tesla-model-s-15000-deal-bad-battery-cell/

3) It CAN be done. The issue is that it doesn't make commercial/financial sense. Rivian has a desire to earn a reputation for durability, but they must also balance that against selling new vehicles and constantly evolving their product lineup. It's a rare occurrence in the automotive industry to find a manufacturer offering significant upgrades to bring older models up to current technology. Buy the vehicle for the tech it has TODAY and enjoy it. In 10-15 years, buy a new one and enjoy that leap in technology. If you spend life worried about the "next big thing" you'll NEVER buy a product because there is ALWAYS something new/big "right around the corner".

4) This feels like an extension of #3, above. They could but it doesn't make sense for them to do so. Few people would pay for it, and it isn't worth their R&D time. Think back over the years and there have been lots of innovations in the automotive world. Fuel injection was a massive improvement over carbs. Airbags were a revolutionary safety tool. Disc brakes were demonstrably better than drum brakes. Did vehicles with the old technology become instantly worthless? No. In fact, you can still buy some vehicles with drum brakes (looking at you Toyota). There is constant innovation, but it won't make a R1 a bad purchase. If you want a Rivian and you can afford it and it meets your needs as-is then buy it and enjoy it! If the range doesn't meet your needs, then you may have to wait.


It isn't worth their cost to R&D those options. I doubt enough people would pay to make it commercially viable. You also should consider the liability and testing involved in allowing such changes. It doesn't make sense for them to do it, as a company.

It's perhaps a bit like the people who want a 6-speed manual vehicle. They're quite a vocal bunch, but it's a SMALL bunch. And they rarely put their money where their mouth is. Outside of some very niche vehicles, any manufacturer who tries to appease this group ends up losing money. Even when the "enthusiasts" applaud the manufacturer they pretty much never put their money where their mouth was and actually bought it. So manufacturers have almost entirely stopped building this type of product. A small group of people complains, and the manufacturers and rest of the world go about their business.

Or perhaps a more-direct analogy is the flat-towing and V2H crowd. Based on what you can read on this forum, you might think that 98% of the world owns $350k mega-RVs and DEMANDS that they can flat tow their vehicle and power their McMansions from the traction batteries. Sure, a few people fit that description -- but it's such a SMALL percentage of actual customers. Rivian needs to focus on getting a product to market, and that means satisfying 99% of people -- not 0.001%.

All of that makes sense.

I guess I will have to decide when more in-depth reviews of actual user experience and expert reviews come out this year.

The RS1 is the SUV that I want. Rivian, hopefully, will come out with greater details before I put down $1,000.00 to reserve it. Don't want to get burned on a brand new up-start without proof of work.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

The RS1 is the SUV that I want. Rivian, hopefully, will come out with greater details before I put down $1,000.00 to reserve it. Don't want to get burned on a brand new up-start without proof of work.

Deposit is refundable. You'll get the info you seek, this year. But if you want your R1S in the next couple years you should reserve now. Waiting will only delay your delivery.

 

[DucRider]

When ICE engines went from carburetors to fuel injection, it was possible to retrofit the "newer tech" - but it wasn't offered by any manufacturer.
The same can be said for any other major advancement in ICE technology that has (or will) give better efficiency or performance.

It will always be possible to put newer tech in an older vehicle, but it will not be offered by the vehicle manufacturer. Lots of old cars are being fitted with LS series engines - but none of those are being done by Chevy themselves.

Vehicles are full of wear items. Refurbing a battery pack is (or at least will become) the equivalent of rebuilding an engine.
One example:
https://grubermotors.com/services/model-s-main-battery-pack-repair/

Many of us cannot see what you were discussing with CommodoreAmiga, as he ignores anyone that ruffles his feathers and he selects the option that also prevents the ignored users from seeing anything he posts even when quoted in a discussion.

As to your living "off grid" - would buying gas keep you off grid? Either to run a generator to power your house or to fuel your vehicle? I guess if your beef is only with electric utilities it would to some degree, but the gas you use still depends on the grid for refining, distribution, etc.

Sponsored