GM adopts Tesla's NACS standard! Munro begs Rivian to switch

[Yossarian]

An observation that may or may not be related to the recent Ford & GM agreements with Tesla.

There were over 100 vehicles in the R1 Shop this morning, by far the most I've seen in nearly a year of (on again/off again) access. The trend in the number of vehicles I've been seeing in the R1 Shop since my access was restored about a month ago has been consistently upward, so this may mean nothing. Of course, it also may not mean nothing . . .

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[DuoRivians]

That is a super odd way to look at things Here is a different way to look at the same data:

CCS1 sales by companies clinging to the old standard = 158,630
Everything Else =11,643,256
CCS1 = (US sales excluding Tesla, Ford, GM)
Everything Else = (Non-US sales that use different charging standards, plus US Tesla, Ford and GM)

Of how about the more actually relevant data for US market:
NACS Companies = 604,253 or 79.1% market share
Non-NACS = 158,630 or 20.9% market share.

Companies are going to use CCS2 in Europe, GB/T in China, and a different standard in North America. The only question is whether the different standard will be CCS1 or NACS. 79% of the market says NACS.

As part of the agreement with the Biden administration, Tesla said they’ll make 7.5K chargers available to CCS in alternative fuel corridors, ie along major highways particularly non-urban areas.

 

[DuoRivians]

With all this talk about retrofitting, I’d actually really support adoption of CCS2 in the US if it were relatively easy.

 

[COdogman]

You really are grasping for anything to make your point, aren't you? Gonna be fun to watch your reaction when RJ goes on Twitter to announce Rivian adoption of NACS.

I’m not “grasping” at anything. I have to keep repeating the same point because you will comment on literally everything except that point, including things I didn’t write and what you think my reaction to some future event might be.

I welcome more chargers for all to use. All I’ve said from the beginning is that Tesla’s plug cannot be considered a “standard” because only Tesla uses it and controls its use.

 

[DuoRivians]

I’m not “grasping” at anything. I have to keep repeating the same point because you will comment on literally everything except that point, including things I didn’t write and what you think my reaction to some future event might be.

I welcome more chargers for all to use. All I’ve said from the beginning is that Tesla’s plug cannot be considered a “standard” because only Tesla uses it and controls its use.

It’s like arguing with flat-earthers. No matter what you say, at the end of the day, they’ll come back to saying the earth is flat

 

[COdogman]

It’s like arguing with flat-earthers. No matter what you say, at the end of the day, they’ll come back to saying the earth is flat

 

[scottf200]

https://new.abb.com/us

 

[R1Sky Business]

Well, the White House issued a statement Friday saying Tesla could get federal dollars, but they must have CCS. The plot thickens. Lol

“The White House on Friday said electric-vehicle charging stations using Tesla (TSLA.O) standard plugs would be eligible for billions of dollars in federal subsidies as long as they included the U.S. charging standard connection, CCS, as well.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/wh...ral-dollars-long-they-include-ccs-2023-06-09/

Magic dock..... easy.

 

[R1Sky Business]

Never seen a crowd at a RAN charger except for a Rivian club event. Ford and Bolts can't charge at RANs yet although 1 of each did at Coos Bay when it first came on line

So....no more crowds!!!!!

 

[R1Sky Business]

Yeah, it's how Ford will integrate with Tesla services for all the CCS port vehicles they're building between now and the if/when change to the Tesla connector (purportedly in 2025).

There's 3 ways a CCS vehicle can connect to a Tesla Supercharger:

1) Magic Dock - this is the Tesla solution where there's a CCS adapter that's modular, it's connected when you initiate a CCS charge, otherwise not. This uses the Tesla app, to manage and bill the charging session by selecting a stall number at a SuC location. Any CCS vehicle should be able to use this method (anyone can install the Tesla app, setup a CC, and then use the "Charge your non-Tesla" under accounts).

2) CCS using NACS - this (as described above) will allow a vehicle with CCS to connect to a stall and initiate charging and be billed fully automated, and the payment handling, session monitoring, etc., will be done through the manufacturers native app (vs. Tesla). This requires the CCS implementation on the vehicle side to be NACS compliant (i.e., auth/comm protocols) and to use an as-yet-to-be seen Tesla provided adapter - also, the manufacturer would have to have integrated with Tesla backend services (it's not like a compliant CCS port and some rogue adapter would "just work").

3) Tesla native connector (using NACS) - a physical Tesla port installed in the vehicle, NACS compliant implementation at the hardware level, and the same integration of backend services as #2 above. This really only differs in the physical implementation of the port, the user experience should be the same.

And when it comes down to it, Tesla has 2 pins for power (for both AC and DC) a ground a two data pins, and CCS1 has 2 pins for AC, 2 pins for DC - and a ground and two data pins.

We know Tesla can handle the interfacing and basic communication as we've seen in Magic Dock (so things like charge speed/ negotiation is already in place), we know CCS can fast charge a Tesla port (via their or a number of 3rd party adapters), we know J1772 is handled easily between the specs.

The main thing is that extra comm/auth information that a SuC Stall uses to interface upstream, send the vehicle/account ID, provide transaction processing, validate, trigger the charging to start - all just by plugging into the vehicle - but that's not dependent on the physical port.

Solutions!!!! Very progressive.

 

[MP3Mike]

As part of the agreement with the Biden administration, Tesla said they’ll make 7.5K chargers available to CCS in alternative fuel corridors, ie along major highways particularly non-urban areas.

No, they didn't. A total of 7,500 charging spots, but only 3,500 of them will be CCS/DC fast chargers. The other 4,000 will be AC L2, i.e. J1772, not CCS.

Here is the actual verbiage:

• Tesla, for the first time, will open a portion of its U.S. Supercharger and Destination Charger network to non-Tesla EVs, making at least 7,500 chargers available for all EVs by the end of 2024. The open chargers will be distributed across the United States. They will include at least 3,500 new and existing 250 kW Superchargers along highway corridors to expand freedom of travel for all EVs, and Level 2 Destination Charging at locations like hotels and restaurants in urban and rural locations. All EV drivers will be able to access these stations using the Tesla app or website. Additionally, Tesla will more than double its full nationwide network of Superchargers, manufactured in Buffalo, New York.

 

[Zorg]

A few folks are all hung up on open vs proprietary standard, except it doesn't matter. I just want my Rivian to have access to the best plug and fast charging network.

 

[COdogman]

A few folks are all hung up on open vs proprietary standard, except it doesn't matter. I just want my Rivian to have access to the best plug and fast charging network.

It doesn’t matter to YOU.

You have made it clear you don’t care about the implications of one man controlling the majority of the nation’s charging infrastructure. You have also made it clear you don’t care how it impacts anyone except yourself.

 

[SASSquatch]

That is just reiterating the policy the way it has always been. Tesla could always get money if they installed CCS and NACS paired. (And meet all the other requirements.)



No, there are no licensing fees for putting a NACS connector on a charger or inlet on a vehicle.



I'm pretty sure he said it wasn't worth converting the existing vehicles to 800v. But newer vehicles will use 800v when it makes sense. Like the Cybertruck and Semi. 800v is really only necessary for vehicles with large batteries. (At least when using NACS, when using CCS you have to go 800v to get more than ~180kW out of a charger.)

I'm pretty sure I don't give a damn what Elon Musk thinks and I don't want his thoughts or preferences to dictate or influence what an entire industry does because he controls 100% of the NACS charging infrastructure.

 

[SASSquatch]

800v tech might be the future, but it’s not mainstream yet.

In fact, with the DC to DC converter - the 800v cars often charge slower than 400v cars.

Can you at least admit that CCS1 is less user friendly and that consumers will require a more user friendly CCS design if CCS is expected to ever take off?

Yes, I will admit that it is less user friendly - because there hasn't been a good enough effort to standardize to that standard.

Look at what the Europeans did. They forced a standard to CCS-2 and usability is quite good.

You don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I want to reiterate something again. I am not opposed to the NACS port. I am opposed to adopting a standard that one entity has dominant influence and control over.

I would have much rather have had Ford and GM say "Hey, we are going to adopt the NACS port - and we are going to spend our $$ helping third parties already in the development pipeline institute this as a standard"

Vs. what they actually said:

"We don't care about the consumer. We don't want this problem. It is way cheaper to pay a ransom to Elon Musk and conserve billions in cash so that he can deal with it how he wants."

People complain about the fact that the CCS charger is bulky. Is it any bulkier than an existing gasoline nozzle?

The user friendly aspect is because the experience Tesla offers to Tesla drivers is standardized. You will only get that when you use a Tesla run Supercharger - and then you don't even know what it will be like when you are dealing with a different OEM that just has the port. You are likely going to have to jump through some hoops.

Third party NACS machines will act like CCS machines of today - the experience isn't standardized because Tesla isn't running it. So to get the more user friendly experience you have to submit to using a Tesla run supercharger. That will push you towards Tesla and make competition very difficult.

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