Tax Credit Changes in new bill [LOCKED DUE TO POLITICS & ARGUING]

[Bullitt]

So expecting someone who is considering the purchase of an ~80k luxury vehicle to know the very basics of budgeting and then being disappointed when that isn't the case qualifies as being a jerk to boost my own ego?

NO. You assuming we dont understand budgeting is you being a jerk to boost your own ego… straight up.

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[rohobono]

You don't know anyone's financial situation. How long they may have had their house paid off or what they paid for it, what part of the country they live in, whether or not they had any kids to push thru college, or whether they felt the need to try and keep up with their neighbors, just because that truck may be their biggest purchase doesn't mean they will go in debt over it. I for one worked hard and knew how to save money and have never felt the need to try and keep up with a rich neighbor or friend.

You're missing my whole point, it doesn't matter what people's specific financial circumstances are. If a 7500$ discount on an ~80k purchase of a luxury vehicle is the difference between being able to make that purchase or not, then the reality of the situation is that purchase was never in their budget to begin with and they should seriously reconsider their financial priorities.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

I would honestly argue that discussions of climate change are not political either or at least shouldn't be, the science is very clear on the topic. It becomes a political issue because people want to ignore it for political reasons. I would also argue it is relevant in this enthusiast forum because of Rivian's corporate mission statements.

Discussions of climate change ARE political and the climate is absolutely used by BOTH sides to push an agenda that has NOTHING to do actual pollution. I would also argue that anyone who believes “the science is clear” doesn’t really understand the science very well.

Thing is now you’re making me discuss politics which DO NOT belong here. As far as Rivian’s mission statement the only thing that needs to be discussed or acknowledged is that EV’s are more efficient and are better for pollution. Climate change does NOT need to be discussed to a greater degree than that and frankly I come here so I don’t have to listen to that shit.

This is a vehicle forum, and the discussions should center on the vehicle and NOTHING ELSE outside of the off topic section and I would argue it shouldn’t even be discussed there. I’m certain your definition and mine as to what the climate is really doing is different and it doesn’t need to be discussed here.

As I said before frankly it’s rude for people to shove that shit down the throats of others who just come here to discuss a car.

 

[Acoustic71]

Discussions of climate change ARE political and the climate is absolutely used by BOTH sides to push an agenda that has NOTHING to do actual pollution. I would also argue that anyone who believes “the science is clear” doesn’t really understand the science very well.

Thing is now you’re making me discuss politics which DO NOT belong here. As far as Rivian’s mission statement the only thing that needs to be discussed or acknowledged is that EV’s are more efficient and are better for pollution. Climate change does NOT need to be discussed to a greater degree than that and frankly I come here so I don’t have to listen to that shit.

This is a vehicle forum, and the discussions should center on the vehicle and NOTHING ELSE outside of the off topic section and I would argue it shouldn’t even be discussed there. I’m certain your definition and mine as to what the climate is really doing is different and it doesn’t need to be discussed here.

As I said before frankly it’s rude for people to shove that shit down the throats of others who just come here to discuss a car.

Preach it, brother! Couldn't agree more.

 

[Autolycus]

7500$ can be a lot of money to take off a vehicle. If you take 7500$ off a 35k vehicle, that is a significant savings. For a Rivian, the 7500$ would be, at most, 10% off for people pre price hike. If getting a 10%-off coupon on your luxury adventure vehicle is what's keeping you from buying it then, again, I would suggest you seriously reconsider your priorities.

Seriously, this is always one of the dumbest discussions I see regularly on the internet. If you feel like you should comment on the internet about other people's value assessments for products they're considering buying, you're probably doing something wrong in life. Why the hell do you think you have a better answer than everyone else for how they should prioritize spending their own discretionary money?

 

[rohobono]

NO. You assuming we dont understand budgeting is you being a jerk to boost your own ego… straight up.

Well people either understand basic budgeting, in which case they shouldn't be complaining that they can't afford the latest and greatest luxury adventure vehicle without a coupon. Or they don't understand basic budgeting, in which case the explanation was warranted.

Either way, I'd rather come off as an ass, than perpetuate bad financial advice.

 

[Jac]

With the passage of time since this proposed legislation was announced, I feel like I have been cycling through the various stages of grief —- denial, bargaining, anger, acceptance —- regarding the federal tax credit’s availabilty for my R1S that I reserved in 2021. It‘s definitely disappointing, but if the legislation passes as proposed I’m still committed to getting my Rivian R1S.

Some on the forum will not qualify due to income. Some will not qualify due to the MSRP of their build. The legislation’s battery mineral source and battery component manufacturing location requirements may (we just don’t know yet) ultimately kill tax credits for everyone else expecting delivery after this year who slipped past the new tax credit’s income cap and MSRP cap hurdles.

I’m done thinking about whether I’ll qualify for the new tax credit. I’ve finally arrived at the acceptance phase. ?

 

[Autolycus]

Well people either understand basic budgeting, in which case they shouldn't be complaining that they can't afford the latest and greatest luxury adventure vehicle without a coupon. Or they don't understand basic budgeting, in which case the explanation was warranted.

Either way, I'd rather come off as an ass, than perpetuate bad financial advice.

Ahh, see, here's your problem... You injected the word "afford" into a discussion where most weren't actually talking about affordability. They were talking about a choice they were making.

Most of us in this forum can afford an R1T/S with or without the tax credit. That doesn't mean we'll choose to buy an R1T/S if there's no credit. That 10% price increase does actually matter to people when they make decisions. $7500 does matter to people when making financial decisions, even if they can afford the higher price. Without the tax credit, I will like buy a different EV that qualifies for the credit and save myself the difference in price AND the extra $7500 and go spend that on a really nice vacation or two.

 

[Bullitt]

Ahh, see, here's your problem... You injected the word "afford" into a discussion where most weren't actually talking about affordability. They were talking about a choice they were making.

Most of us in this forum can afford an R1T/S with or without the tax credit. That doesn't mean we'll choose to buy an R1T/S if there's no credit. That 10% price increase does actually matter to people when they make decisions. $7500 does matter to people when making financial decisions, even if they can afford the higher price. Without the tax credit, I will like buy a different EV that qualifies for the credit and save myself the difference in price AND the extra $7500 and go spend that on a really nice vacation or two.

Spot on… In fact people that budget really well take into consideration every incentive and take advantage of every coupon. It’s financially wise and most people with a lot more money than us on this thread followed this rule to get where they are.

 

[freshpow]

Ahh, see, here's your problem... You injected the word "afford" into a discussion where most weren't actually talking about affordability. They were talking about a choice they were making.

Most of us in this forum can afford an R1T/S with or without the tax credit. That doesn't mean we'll choose to buy an R1T/S if there's no credit. That 10% price increase does actually matter to people when they make decisions. $7500 does matter to people when making financial decisions, even if they can afford the higher price. Without the tax credit, I will like buy a different EV that qualifies for the credit and save myself the difference in price AND the extra $7500 and go spend that on a really nice vacation or two.

Agree with you on most points except that it makes absolutely no sense to not reap the rewards of your early reservation by buying the R1T/R1S and flipping it for $20k+ profit...sure, it will take some additional work and may be a PITA, but if $7,500 is enough to influence your purchase, then 3x that amount should surely be worth the trouble. Then you can take a really nice vacation or six. This is why I keep pushing back when I see people say they won't go through with the purchase without the tax credit.

 

[zefram47]

I would also argue that anyone who believes “the science is clear” doesn’t really understand the science very well.

And this statement proves *you* don't know what you're talking about. As someone who actually got their degree in meteorology and had to take courses covering climate, the science is absolutely clear on what is going on and has been for well over two decades now. Just because you'd rather stick your head in the sand and pretend anthropogenic climate change isn't a problem doesn't mean it isn't real.

And to those who want to say that the Rivian or any of the heavy EV trucks won't help. Yes, they are *far* less efficient than a Tesla or some smaller EV, but if you compare them to the vehicles most will be replacing, then they're still upwards of 3-4x more efficient than a full size truck or SUV. My Rivian will be replacing an off-road built SUV that gets around 15 mpg...EV absolutely makes sense here. Only slightly questionable part is that it also replaces my EV city car that gets 4 mi/kWh and currently gets the most miles per year put on it. As for personal finances and the $7.5k making a difference or not...for me it probably won't, but it still stings. I'm also taking two owned vehicles and selling/trading them into the Rivian, which makes it a hell of a lot more affordable. Everyone has their own situation and no two will be the same, especially if you factor in cost of living/where they live. As someone else mentioned, these salary caps just look good on paper but are otherwise meaningless when they can't take into account cost of living or how someone gets their money vs assets, etc. I'm in the camp wanting to see more credits for startup EV companies since they have higher initial costs as they ramp production and gain public trust. Tesla is *long* past that point and will never need credits to stay afloat, but before anyone knew who they were...it very likely helped them get where they are toady. Many who have trucks in here say they constantly encounter people who haven't even heard the name Rivian yet let alone know that EV trucks/SUVs are even a thing yet.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

And this statement proves *you* don't know what you're talking about. As someone who actually got their degree in meteorology and had to take courses covering climate, the science is absolutely clear on what is going on and has been for well over two decades now. Just because you'd rather stick your head in the sand and pretend anthropogenic climate change isn't a problem doesn't mean it isn't real.

And to those who want to say that the Rivian or any of the heavy EV trucks won't help. Yes, they are *far* less efficient than a Tesla or some smaller EV, but if you compare them to the vehicles most will be replacing, then they're still upwards of 3-4x more efficient than a full size truck or SUV. My Rivian will be replacing an off-road built SUV that gets around 15 mpg...EV absolutely makes sense here. Only slightly questionable part is that it also replaces my EV city car that gets 4 mi/kWh and currently gets the most miles per year put on it. As for personal finances and the $7.5k making a difference or not...for me it probably won't, but it still stings. I'm also taking two owned vehicles and selling/trading them into the Rivian, which makes it a hell of a lot more affordable. Everyone has their own situation and no two will be the same, especially if you factor in cost of living/where they live. As someone else mentioned, these salary caps just look good on paper but are otherwise meaningless when they can't take into account cost of living or how someone gets their money vs assets, etc. I'm in the camp wanting to see more credits for startup EV companies since they have higher initial costs as they ramp production and gain public trust. Tesla is *long* past that point and will never need credits to stay afloat, but before anyone knew who they were...it very likely helped them get where they are toady. Many who have trucks in here say they constantly encounter people who haven't even heard the name Rivian yet let alone know that EV trucks/SUVs are even a thing yet.

Wow an appeal to authority where an argument should be. Imagine that. Funny how you can disagree with my position without even knowing what it is. Your clairvoyance is pretty impressive. I can do childish laugh reacts too.

 

[DJG]

I think you might want to go back and take a look at macro economics. The whole concept of buyers incentives are to increase demand, not to subsidize the suppliers. While more sales will ultimately result in cashflow for the suppliers, there is a price elasticity and competition that does not allow suppliers to automatically increase the selling price by the incentive amount.

Thanks for you perspective. We have to agree to disagree on this point.

So you think Tesla, GM, et. al. are lobbying the government entirely on behalf of Joe Schmoe consumer? That's pretty naive. If Tesla is selling all of the Model Y's they can make at $60k with no tax incentive, you better believe that as soon as the bill passes they will look to increase the price to $67,500 yielding the same price and demand curve as before. That's simple economics as well, and that is why they lobbied so hard to remove the production cap, same with GM and Ford (who was fast approaching it).

Flipping it around, as you say incentives increase demand, which is correct. And what happens when you increase demand for a given supply? Increasing prices.

The incentives were conceived because collectively it was determined that consumers on average were willing to pay XX for an electric vehicle, and at the present time the cost of building one to deliver the requisite profit margin for the business to undertake the endeavor was X + $7,500. With the stroke of the pen, the government makes a market and everyone seemingly wins (consumers get the product they desire at the price they are willing to pay, producers get to sell it for the profit they need). Looked at another way, the government asks producers, what will it cost for you to produce electric vehicles? The consumer is willing to pay some and the government (public) is coming in to pay the balance. Eventually the consumer and producer should meet each other and the government no longer has a role to play. Or, the government is a bunch of idiots and are just spending money where it's not necessary for them to be involved. That's the $100 billion question.

 

[Bullitt]

Agree with you on most points except that it makes absolutely no sense to not reap the rewards of your early reservation by buying the R1T/R1S and flipping it for $20k+ profit...sure, it will take some additional work and may be a PITA, but if $7,500 is enough to influence your purchase, then 3x that amount should surely be worth the trouble. Then you can take a really nice vacation or six. This is why I keep pushing back when I see people say they won't go through with the purchase without the tax credit.

You’re spot on for many. In reality there’s more thee to unpack for my situation… my wife is very frugal and is generally stressed out these days. The outlay would cause her to crack even though we can do it. Also, it really is a challenge to flip a vehicle that the bank owns — worlds different if you own it outright where you have a title to sell. Another relationship strain for my frivolous purchase!

That all said it’s why I’ve been crunchy about being “schooled” on budgeting in earlier posts. My situation financially and what my wife can handle stress wise are all factored in for me, thus the need for the $7500 credit to make this purchase work!

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Agree with you on most points except that it makes absolutely no sense to not reap the rewards of your early reservation by buying the R1T/R1S and flipping it for $20k+ profit...sure, it will take some additional work and may be a PITA, but if $7,500 is enough to influence your purchase, then 3x that amount should surely be worth the trouble. Then you can take a really nice vacation or six. This is why I keep pushing back when I see people say they won't go through with the purchase without the tax credit.

While the current market says you're correct it's still a gamble to buy a truck you can't comfortably afford especially when interest rates are rising. The worst thing that could happen is that you buy the truck with the intent to sell and the used car bubble pops. Then you're sitting on a vehicle you can't comfortably afford in a down economy.

I do agree that at current market conditions it seems like a no brainer to buy the vehicle with the intent to flip it as worst case you'll walk away with over your money back. Even if you sell it for less than it costs to buy it new at the current pricing you still stand to make 20Kish. However with every percentage point the interest rate goes up fewer people can financially justify spending the money on the truck which will reduce demand. Luxury goods are a dangerous category to play for investments.

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