New proposed Federal rules on building EV charging stations (to obtain federal subsidies)

[Denver_Paulie]

I get the chicken and egg part of it, but the question is whether a private enterprise would have built in the location as demand has grown / grows - because they sure aren't going to compete with a free government charger now. 5 years from now, that location will still likely have the same shitty charger with no alternatives.

Shitty charger? As opposed to what alternative in the area? Does not seem like you have ever been in an EV to remote parts of Colorado, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Wyoming, or Montana, nor understand the challenges of operating a high speed charging network in remote areas.

I also get that you have challenges with government and that government should not get involved where you think private enterprise would do better. That is certainly not always the case.

I am sure your are a smart person, but I think you will be in a much better position to have this conversation once you own an EV, take a road trip in an EV, leverage any charging network in an EV, try to get to a remote part of the American west in an EV, and understand the economic dynamics behind operating a charging network in remote areas because it does not seem like you fully comprehend why government involvement in rolling out this charging infrastructure is crucial at this point of time.

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[jjswan33]

..when it comes to the Bluff station Kyle and I strongly disagree with you...

But why? I mean I saw the video too and yes it's dark and just on the side of the highway in a tiny community but I don't see how that is any worse than a closed Walmart parking lot in a sketchy area for example.

I mean as long as you don't need to use the bathroom it was adequate.

 

[Gator42]

Then


Then maybe we’re not referring to the same one…lemme see…

UPDATE: here's the video/location I was referring to...



I see two stations built on the shoulder of a two lane road. Poorly lit. Not sure what the speed limit is but looks like highway speeds...

Some of Kyle's quotes:

"This is the oddest charging station I've ever been to..."

"...there's like no room to park"

"I came past...and made a U-turn because the charging port is on this side..." (i.e. a U-turn on a high speed two lane road in the dark)

"..thanks to the State of Utah..." ?

"Now we're just kinda sitting in the middle of the road..."

'...it certainly brings up the topic of charging station safety to me..."

...me, too. See for yourselves and make your own judgement...

Here…

 

[LaunchGreen]

Shitty charger? As opposed to what alternative in the area? Does not seem like you have ever been in an EV to remote parts of Colorado, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Wyoming, or Montana, nor understand the challenges of operating a high speed charging network in remote areas.

I also get that you have challenges with government and that government should not get involved where you think private enterprise would do better. That is certainly not always the case.

I am sure your are a smart person, but I think you will be in a much better position to have this conversation once you own an EV, take a road trip in an EV, leverage any charging network in an EV, try to get to a remote part of the American west in an EV, and understand the economic dynamics behind operating a charging network in remote areas because it does not seem like you fully comprehend why government involvement in rolling out this charging infrastructure is crucial at this point of time.

The proposal isn't about just remote locations that aren't serviced or commercially viable. There are programs like remote area power, telephone, broadband that could be good models here, but I suspect that isn't what we are going to see. However, it sounds like we don't have the details currently so I guess we will see how much of an overreach it is it next week.

If applicable, government chargers between San Diego and L.A. on the 5 is going to be interesting. There is probably like 50 already, but I guess these ones won't need an app or something.

 

[Denver_Paulie]

The proposal isn't about just remote locations that aren't serviced or commercially viable. There are programs like remote area power, telephone, broadband that could be good models here, but I suspect that isn't what we are going to see. However, it sounds like we don't have the details currently so I guess we will see how much of an overreach it is it next week.

If applicable, government chargers between San Diego and L.A. on the 5 is going to be interesting. There is probably like 50 already, but I guess these ones won't need an app or something.

Like you said, we will see how this all shakes out in the future. When it comes to charging infrastructure, I am all in favor in having government help accelerate expansion. Relying currently only on Tesla and Electrify America for cross country EV travel does not sit well with me, so I would love new and alternative options.

 

[mwexler2]

Are you going to North Dakota this summer? Eastern Montana? If not, then nothing to fear.

Please do not believe the Tesla bull$hit propaganda machine about the current CCS charging infrastructure. I live in Denver and can get to Vegas, PHX, Dallas, LA, SLC, or Kansas City faster in my Taycan than any other EV on the market currently.

Once you get your Rivian you will be fine.

Actually my concern is Northern British Columbia and Southern Alaska. And it isn’t any better with Tesla as far as I can tell.

 

[Denver_Paulie]

Actually my concern is Northern British Columbia and Southern Alaska. And it isn’t any better with Tesla as far as I can tell.

Holy crap!!!

it will be a while before that infrastructure is built out due to the remoteness, cost to maintain, and low use.

That is the one thing I regret about not doing before I gave up my motorcycle riding days, riding up to Alaska.

 

[Denver_Paulie]

Here…

I feel it would help your credibility in this conversation if you had some experience in charging an EV in a remote part of Utah in the middle of the night as opposed to simply relying on Kyle's video.

Like I said, I respect Kyle, and his work, but he is not the end all be all authority on EVs. What he calls "dangerous" is more like "what do you expect from an EV charger in a very small town in a very remote part of Utah that has hwy 191 rolling down the middle of it." Kyle is not from the American West, nor has he been too many remote parts of the American west in an EV, so his opinion is not to be 100% relied upon.

Finally, try being your own person because you posting a video of a car charging in the pitch dark with cars driving by 50 ft away does not seem dangerous when you have no other charging options.

 

[Gator42]

I feel it would help your credibility in this conversation if you had some experience in charging an EV in a remote part of Utah in the middle of the night as opposed to simply relying on Kyle's video.

Like I said, I respect Kyle, and his work, but he is not the end all be all authority on EVs. What he calls "dangerous" is more like "what do you expect from an EV charger in a very small town in a very remote part of Utah that has hwy 191 rolling down the middle of it." Kyle is not from the American West, nor has he been too many remote parts of the American west in an EV, so his opinion is not to be 100% relied upon.

Finally, try being your own person because you posting a video of a car charging in the pitch dark with cars driving by 50 ft away does not seem dangerous when you have no other charging options.

Your judgments on my credibility don't interest me in the slightest so you can keep those to yourself...it does amaze me there are other drivers who can't conceive of why the side of the road is a terrible location for a charging station*, so I've made a new post about this spot for comments...

 

[Guy]

It is amazing to think how just $1 billion through EA has made a massive difference over the last five years. Clear standards are a good idea and I would support more money going to EA and maybe a couple of other chains providing decent L3 charging across the US.

 

[MoodyDIK]

Elon is a dbag. He doesn’t care about anything but his ego and his wallet.

I was reading an article about charging infrastructure and Elon basically is freezing some smaller players plans to add DC fast chargers. By saying he was going to open up the Tesla network.

Thus the reason I have no desire to buy a Tesla. I give the my business to the competition.

 

[yizzung]

Government subsidies of oil is ~$20b annually. Consumption is $700 billion. The subsidies are 2.8% of market size. Federal taxes on fuel are $40b per year (18 cents per gallon, or about 4%)

IE: eliminating subsidies wouldn't likely double the cost & eliminating subsidies and taxes might lower the cost.

I'm all for eliminating oil subsidies, however that wasn't my point. My point is that the proposed subsidy is for charging stations (the equivalent of gas stations) but only when they adhere to the government's rules. Oil and gas is subsidized at the production level - which, by the way, is already happening to electricity production.

Inevitably the government's rules are going to be outdated and there will be loopholes and we will end up with a bunch of crappy 6kw chargers in senators home towns. Either way, we don't really get to decide so let's resume the discussion in 2030

Sure. Plenty of this is debatable but I think the government is trying to solve a cold start problem for both charging availability and demand for EVs, which is not the same thing as subsidizing a well established industry that dates back to the 1800s...

(And if we're being honest with ourselves about subsidies, shouldn't we amortize the $2T we spent on Operation Iraqi Oil, er, oops, I meant Freedom, um, Iraqi Freedom? I doubt we're going to park any aircraft carriers nearby to safeguard these EV charging stations...)

The bet our government is making is that more charging access = more confident EV buyers = more EV demand. We've had EVs for many years and there's still plenty of charging desserts (and EVs are still less than 5% share of the market). IDK if this bet will pay off or not but I'm sure there are comparable precedents for public infrastructure (airports? runways? pipelines? electric grids?)

It's also worth pointing out that the government isn't building a thing here. Private industry will end up building it with some added incentives. Won't be perfect but I welcome the ($) "encouragement".

 

[mwexler2]

Holy crap!!!

it will be a while before that infrastructure is built out due to the remoteness, cost to maintain, and low use.

That is the one thing I regret about not doing before I gave up my motorcycle riding days, riding up to Alaska.

While I understand your point, if we can settle for summer only access, a combination of a really big set of solar panels and a modest (e.g. 1 Mwh) battery could do well for a lightly traveled route. Not cheap, but relatively practical.

 

[SASSquatch]

Elon is a dbag. He doesn’t care about anything but his ego and his wallet.

I was reading an article about charging infrastructure and Elon basically is freezing some smaller players plans to add DC fast chargers. By saying he was going to open up the Tesla network.

You had me at "Elon is a dbag."

+1!

 

[Denver_Paulie]

While I understand your point, if we can settle for summer only access, a combination of a really big set of solar panels and a modest (e.g. 1 Mwh) battery could do well for a lightly traveled route. Not cheap, but relatively practical.

I certainly hear you, but you are proposing a complex solution with many parts that do not do so well in extreme weather. Even if it is only open in the summer the stations will need to be serviced, and getting a reliable tech up there, even for routine service, is extremely challenging.

If Tesla has not figured out how to service that route yet, then everyone one else is even further behind.

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