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What We Do Not Know - Important Information Still Needed to Make an Informed Decision

MReda

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RVs pulling Jeeps is incredibly common around here, people boondock and go offroading. I'm sure it's a small percentage of overall Rivian owners, but for a certain user, it's every weekend over the summer.
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Bobthebuilder352

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Youā€™re very likely right and, in fact, the number who use it may be less than 5% (although for those who do, it will be much more than 1% of the time ā€” for me it would be once or twice a month).
The benefit to Rivian is that folks with those expensive diesel rigs often have lots of money, and the RV community talks a lot. If a vehicle captures a niche for literally being plug-and-play and also providing back-up power, it could capture a huge share (although of a relatively small market). This is clearly not for you (and I won't address that you don't like the idea of RVs towing vehicles... but for those of us who do it, it's worth the "resistance" for a number of reasons), but it could create a unique target group.
Maybe but unless they make a super lightweight version I donā€™t know any RV folks personally that would get this. Total RV tow group buying annually is 1,000 vehicles?
I have nothing against an RV towing a vehicle but a special feature with such low utilization makes no sense from a R&D perspective. Besides... Turn on recharge tow mode and that diesel pusher will get what? 3mpg?
 

Bobthebuilder352

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RVs pulling Jeeps is incredibly common around here, people boondock and go offroading. I'm sure it's a small percentage of overall Rivian owners, but for a certain user, it's every weekend over the summer.
Totally agree but a wrangler is towed because itā€™s short and light (and fun). I think Iā€™ve noticed two RVā€™s towing a full size truck. And you can tow a full-size truck all you want but I donā€™t get the logic of increasing rolling resistance with a charge system. A trickle charge cable would would make more sense and be more efficient.
 

MReda

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Totally agree but a wrangler is towed because itā€™s short and light (and fun). I think Iā€™ve noticed two RVā€™s towing a full size truck. And you can tow a full-size truck all you want but I donā€™t get the logic of increasing rolling resistance with a charge system. A trickle charge cable would would make more sense and be more efficient.
I don't think anyone would force you to use this hypothetical feature...
 

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Eager2own

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Sorry, I didnā€™t realize i was on the obscure feature request thread with no logical debate. I will see myself out.
Wow! I only asked about an obscure and what you consider meaningless feature because Rivian itself has mentioned it before. It would be helpful to know if tow charging will be a feature in the production vehicle or if this is only intended as an emergency option.
Frankly even I wouldnā€™t use the tow charging often as Iā€™d use electrical outlets at sites for most charging, but I very much would want ability to flat tow... which again Rivian itself has previously brought up.
Although not useful to you or others, many have asked about features I donā€™t care about, yet I donā€™t feel the need to post 5-7 times about what an useless feature that would be.
And itā€™s not just of interest to me as others have posted threads here and other forums asking about the flat towing option and wanting to know about tow charging. So to some of us, this would be useful info.
 

Fenwayfan77

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It doesn't work like that. Price is not based on value or on cost. It is based on what people will pay. You will receive everything you pay for. If you don't like the price, don't buy it. It is that simple.
I see both points being valid. Sure, value has always been about what someone is willing to pay, but cost structuring typically always incorporates different levels of quality, extras, enhancements, etc. that the buyer will receive for said price. I'm still going to buy the 5 seater R1S regardless, but it's true in that if all other factors are equal between the two models, the 7 seater incorporates more "items" per se like he stated. Now, if the 5 seater version ends up featuring some nice goodies/options in the cargo area then it's easier for the consumer to validate the price being the same. There is a likely value swap of sorts that is being presented in that case.
 

E Parx

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Back to the original topic of this thread, I haven't seen any mention of if there will be a wireless charging dock for electronic devices. Definitely nice to be able to hop in your vehicle and not have to worry about fumbling with cords.

I'm also curious about specs of the different wheels as mentioned by Protamine earlier in this thread.
 

cohall

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Back to the original topic of this thread, I haven't seen any mention of if there will be a wireless charging dock for electronic devices.
They have confirmed wireless charging. Not sure where I saw it, but it was on the website somewhere.

Edit: found it

4G and WiFi capability, Bluetooth pairing, wireless inductive charger, 6 USBs, 4 110V outlets, Alexa voice commands
 

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E Parx

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Now I just have to go out and buy devices that support wireless charging! :D
Most smartphones have had the capability for years. Samsung has since the S5 for example and there was an adapter for the S4. Even the iPhone has since the 8.
 

davrow_R1T

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Most smartphones have had the capability for years. Samsung has since the S5 for example and there was an adapter for the S4. Even the iPhone has since the 8.
I hadn't realized adapters were so easy and readily available. I'm not obsolete yet!
 

Rise1Set

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I thought I would start a complementary thread to the excellent ā€œWhat We Know - Collecting Information Directly From Rivianā€ maintained by Hexijen. In particular, I thought it would be helpful to track questions for which we donā€™t have answers. To manage the scope of ā€œwhat we donā€™t knowā€, some general guidelines:
  • Consider what information is normally available when purchasing a new vehicle, and whether or not Rivian has provided that information.
  • What is reasonable information to expect from a new car company.
  • What is reasonable information to expect about the emerging industry of EVs and their charging networks.
  • And it goes without saying, though I'll say it anyway, keep it to Rivian.
The idea is to collate open questions that, if ā€“ nay, when! ā€“ answered will help all potential buyers be better informed.

Iā€™ll follow the format of ā€œgeneralā€ topics, R1S topics, and R1T topics, and seed the initial list with items that are common across multiple threads. Apologies to the R1T folks, Iā€™ve mostly been following the R1S.

December 13, 2020 - edits to this list include questions from posts through this date.


General
  • The mystery of the glass roof
    • we know itā€™s not electrochromatic. Website currently says both ā€œpanoramicā€ and ā€œall-glassā€, both of which reference geometry and not tint. Is it a fixed tint, or is there some variable tint? Response from Rivian has been mixed. Also, thereā€™s no information about design: safety, durability, insulation.
  • Other window tint options.
  • Possible hardware options (post your specific requests):
    • ski racks, bike racks
  • Possible software options:
    • What in-car / in-app functionality will exist?
  • Driver+:
    • capabilities at launch
    • cost and plans for upgrades post launch
  • Rivian Adventure Network:
    • locations
    • will the network be permanently or temporarily (or never) free to Rivian owners?
  • Warranty:
    • what will be covered and for how long?
  • Repair:
    • What repair options will exist?
  • Privacy / data collection:
    • Will Rivian have opt-out / opt-in choices for data collection?
    • How will they protect data they collect?
  • Security:
    • What security protocols exist to prevent hacking the vehicle and/or the apps used to interface with the vehicle?
  • Financing options:
    • What financing options will be available?
  • data on towing efficiency, or at least clarification on the ~half reduction Rivian has quoted -- what was the weight and type of towed system that resulted in a 2x reduction in range?
  • clarification and details on regen-towing
  • range, performance, and handling differences between the 3 sets of tires


R1S
  • Battery size/range, cost, and when available for the R1S 7-seater version of the ā€œmaxā€ battery pack:
    • Rivian surprised everyone by saying ā€œAfter launch, weā€™ll announce the timing of our 250+ mile and longer range R1S, also with seven seats.ā€ Meaning something larger than the 135 kWh, now known as ā€œlargeā€, will be available for the 7-seater version of the R1S. For those interested in both the longer range and the 7 seats, it would be quite helpful (essential?!) to understand the range, cost, and availability/timing differences between the Launch Edition (LE) and ā€œmaxā€ versions before having to commit to the LE
  • What additional cargo space does the 5-seat option offer over the 7-seat. Additionally, what dimension is it? Open space, under floor storage, etc?
  • where are the power outlets and their ratings in the R1S?
  • Will there be a price reduction, or credit towards another option, when selecting the 5-person R1S vs. the 7-person R1S?


R1T

Your comments will help fill this out.
I thought I would start a complementary thread to the excellent ā€œWhat We Know - Collecting Information Directly From Rivianā€ maintained by Hexijen. In particular, I thought it would be helpful to track questions for which we donā€™t have answers. To manage the scope of ā€œwhat we donā€™t knowā€, some general guidelines:
  • Consider what information is normally available when purchasing a new vehicle, and whether or not Rivian has provided that information.
  • What is reasonable information to expect from a new car company.
  • What is reasonable information to expect about the emerging industry of EVs and their charging networks.
  • And it goes without saying, though I'll say it anyway, keep it to Rivian.
The idea is to collate open questions that, if ā€“ nay, when! ā€“ answered will help all potential buyers be better informed.

Iā€™ll follow the format of ā€œgeneralā€ topics, R1S topics, and R1T topics, and seed the initial list with items that are common across multiple threads. Apologies to the R1T folks, Iā€™ve mostly been following the R1S.

December 13, 2020 - edits to this list include questions from posts through this date.


General
  • The mystery of the glass roof
    • we know itā€™s not electrochromatic. Website currently says both ā€œpanoramicā€ and ā€œall-glassā€, both of which reference geometry and not tint. Is it a fixed tint, or is there some variable tint? Response from Rivian has been mixed. Also, thereā€™s no information about design: safety, durability, insulation.
  • Other window tint options.
  • Possible hardware options (post your specific requests):
    • ski racks, bike racks
  • Possible software options:
    • What in-car / in-app functionality will exist?
  • Driver+:
    • capabilities at launch
    • cost and plans for upgrades post launch
  • Rivian Adventure Network:
    • locations
    • will the network be permanently or temporarily (or never) free to Rivian owners?
  • Warranty:
    • what will be covered and for how long?
  • Repair:
    • What repair options will exist?
  • Privacy / data collection:
    • Will Rivian have opt-out / opt-in choices for data collection?
    • How will they protect data they collect?
  • Security:
    • What security protocols exist to prevent hacking the vehicle and/or the apps used to interface with the vehicle?
  • Financing options:
    • What financing options will be available?
  • data on towing efficiency, or at least clarification on the ~half reduction Rivian has quoted -- what was the weight and type of towed system that resulted in a 2x reduction in range?
  • clarification and details on regen-towing
  • range, performance, and handling differences between the 3 sets of tires


R1S
  • Battery size/range, cost, and when available for the R1S 7-seater version of the ā€œmaxā€ battery pack:
    • Rivian surprised everyone by saying ā€œAfter launch, weā€™ll announce the timing of our 250+ mile and longer range R1S, also with seven seats.ā€ Meaning something larger than the 135 kWh, now known as ā€œlargeā€, will be available for the 7-seater version of the R1S. For those interested in both the longer range and the 7 seats, it would be quite helpful (essential?!) to understand the range, cost, and availability/timing differences between the Launch Edition (LE) and ā€œmaxā€ versions before having to commit to the LE
  • What additional cargo space does the 5-seat option offer over the 7-seat. Additionally, what dimension is it? Open space, under floor storage, etc?
  • where are the power outlets and their ratings in the R1S?
  • Will there be a price reduction, or credit towards another option, when selecting the 5-person R1S vs. the 7-person R1S?


R1T

Your comments will help fill this out.
Service - Daily Drive Podcast did an interview with RJ on Nov. 10 and it was mentioned that Rivian will do all their own service. For minor issues they are planning for mobile service where a service agent will come to you


Finance/Insurance - same podcast mentioned that Rivian will do itā€™s own insurance and financing.
 

Virgil T2

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In battery parlance 'c' is the 'capacity' of the battery i.e. how many ampere hours of current it takes to 'charge' it. Charge is in quotes because it refers to the Ah that must be put in to bring the battery from 'empty' to 'full' and those two terms can be defined rather arbitrarily. To charge or discharge a battery at the rate 1.5c simply means that if it's cpacity c = 100 Ampere hours you will be charging or discharging at 1.5*100 = 150 Amperes and that means that it will go from full to empty or empty to full in 1/1.5 = 2/3 hours = 40 minutes. That's the formal definition. When speaking as we often do here of cars C is often expressed in kW hours (energy) rather than Ampere hours (current). As the two are related it conveys the same information. A 135 kWh battery charged or discharged at 1.5C is fully charged or discharged in 1/1.5 = 2/3 of an hour and power is taken from it or put into it at 1.5*135 = 202.5 kW.

It should be clear that batteries are happiest if charged and discharged at a sloe rate. We think the RITs are going to use about 450 Wh/mi so cruising at 60 mph the power consumption is going to be .450 (kwh/mi)*60 (mi/hr) = 27 kW. Using the three capacities in the table in No. 29 that means a discharge rate of 27/105 = 0.257C for the smallest pack, 27/135 = 0.2C for the medium and 27/180 = 0.15C for the largest. Thus another advantage of a large pack is that the charge and discharge rates are lower and the battery should have an easier life. Maximum Level 2 charging (11.52 k51W) amounts to, respectively, 0.11C, 0.087C and 0.0651C for the three pack sizes. Fast DC charging at 300 kW means 2.86C, 2.22C or 1.657C. This might lead us to conclude that the OEMS like to keep charge and discharge to below 3C (and once again causes us to shake our heads in disbelief at Rivins decison to release the mid sized battery first).

Thus far we are talking about the nominal conditions of cruise and charging. What about acceleration? There are three factors determining the power demand of the inertial load during acceleration:

1)Rate of acceleration
2)Current speed
3)Mass

In fact the required power for the inertial load is P = m*v*a in which m is the mass, v the speed and a the acceleration. We can get a rough idea as to how much power will be taken from the battery during a 0 - 60 mph run by observing that 60 mph is 26.82 m/s and assuming that we are in the torque limited part of the motor characteristic and that the acceleration is, therefore, uniform up to 60 mph. According to the formula the greatest demand on the battery is then at 60 mph. From the power data in the table we can estimate the mass of the vehicle by assuming that the powers in the table represent the power at 60 mph which, we again, assume is the transition between torque limited and power limited portions of the vehicle characteristic. This gives weights of, respectively, 4495, 5155 and 5107 lbs for the three variants. Clearly not consistent (how could the truck with the 180 kWh pack weigh less than the one with the 135 kWh pack?) but it's not unreasonable to think these vehicles are going to weigh something over 5000 lbs.

The specified gearbox input powers (resp. 300, 562 and 522 kw) represent discharge at, respectively, 2.86C, 4.16C and 2.9C. Now 4.16C may seem like a pretty heavy discharge rate and it is but look again at the power formula. With it's 0 - 60 time of 3 seconds the truck is below 20 mph with a discharge rate of less than (4.16/3)C for the first second and less than (2*4.16/3)C = 2.77C for the second. It only tops 3C in the last second. Discharge at such a high rate but for short duration will not harm the battery.

Now can you operate the trucks at their maxium (power limited) discharge rates estimated to be 2.86C, 4.16C and 2.9C? Sure can. Haul a big trailer up a long steep hill. Will the trucks' BMS do something to prevent damaging the battery if you try to do something like that? I think we can be sure it will but it will not prevent us from driving or charging our trucks in ways that are hard on the batteries within limits.

All the usual caveats with respect to assumptions, relevance of what is in the old table relative to what Rivian will deliver tomorrow etc. apply.
You are one smart dude!
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