Tesla nefarious behavior?

[Donald Stanfield]

We’re talking about safety of the vehicle, unless you think both the American & European ratings agencies are lying? Alternatively, I would hope you could use some deductive reasoning to understand why there are multiple high horsepower, safely built vehicles on the high fatality list & make a better conclusion. Your personal bias is clouding your critical thinking.

So you don’t think the highest fatality rate of any manufacturer is relevant to the safety of the vehicle?

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[COdogman]

No, I because I understand how safety standards & testing for such works. Just the same as looking at the least fatalities in a vehicle & concluding it’s the safest would be an equally silly & unscientific conclusion. You’re welcome to believe vehicle safety agencies are charlatans but I’ll continue to view their methodology as relevant

Most of the vehicles on the list are IIHS safety award winners. So the conclusion can be made that driver behavior is a major reason vehicles end up at the top of the list (if the vehicle itself is designed to be safe). In Tesla’s case the conclusion could also be drawn that FSD and Autopilot don’t reduce driver errors as claimed.

Tesla stans brag about how many miles those systems have been driven and also about how they are safer than a human driver - both cannot be true if Tesla holds 3 of the top 6 spots on the list…

 

[COdogman]

Agree it says more about the driver. Though it looks like they actually only have 2 models in the top 25

https://www.iseecars.com/most-dangerous-cars-study

My bad. Thanks for the correction.

 

[RedRaiderRivian]

and teslas have no problems driving in heavy rain, snow, etc.

Where was the heavy rain in this video? I saw moderate rain in bumper to bumper traffic. Let's see a real downpour on an Interstate going 60+ with trucks throwing spray up everywhere. If FSD can do that then it could be useful in the South where these types of storms happen almost day along along the Gulf of Mexico.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

No, I because I understand how safety standards & testing for such works. Just the same as looking at the least fatalities in a vehicle & concluding it’s the safest would be an equally silly & unscientific conclusion. You’re welcome to believe vehicle safety agencies are charlatans but I’ll continue to view their methodology as relevant

We all understand safety standards, but you're acting like these standards supersede the final reality of who's getting killed in vehicles. There are many different reasons for high fatalities that IIHS or other certifying bodies don't take into account. Crash tests don't cover braking, handling or driver assistance features.

So, while you can have a car that meets or even exceeds safety standards for crash tests, it can still be a hazardous vehicle if it handles poorly, is under-braked for the HP supplied, or its driver assistance systems add danger instead of subtracting it. Looking at an IIHS rating and ignoring that Tesla has two models with the highest death rates of any vehicle is foolish.

Other factors at play make Teslas inherently dangerous. Taking the simplistic view that because they are IIHS crash test safety picks means they aren't hazardous while ignoring the sky-high death rates is a lack of understanding of the big picture, not a greater understanding, as you're suggesting.

 

[pamalabama]

We all understand safety standards, but you're acting like these standards supersede the final reality of who's getting killed in vehicles. There are many different reasons for high fatalities that IIHS or other certifying bodies don't take into account. Crash tests don't cover braking, handling or driver assistance features.

Safety tests do. And tesla scores really well because they have the best in class emergency braking systems. That's why tesla model Y broke the euro NCAP record

 

[COdogman]

Safety tests do. And tesla scores really well because they have the best in class emergency braking systems. That's why tesla model Y broke the euro NCAP record

If FSD and Autopilot are safer than a human driver and have been utilized for as many miles as you say, they should not appear on the top 25 of that list.

 

[pamalabama]

If FSD and Autopilot are safer than a human driver and have been utilized for as many miles as you say, they should not appear on the top 25 of that list.

That list was from 2018-2022. Do you not see a problem with that?

Model Y was an all-time high price and very desirable as a vehicle.

People would capitalize on this by buying model Y and selling it for a profit, hence why "used" model Ys had very few miles on them

So you have a high usage of Model Y combined with a selling of low/no usage model Ys, giving the impression that model Y is unsafe

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Safety tests do. And tesla scores really well because they have the best in class emergency braking systems. That's why tesla model Y broke the euro NCAP record

So the testing tests the braking performance at 150MPH? There are two Tesla models that have the highest death rates of all vehicles. You cannot blame that solely on people. For example many reviewers have lamented the model S is severely under braked for the level of performance. There’s a reason why every other car that goes 200MPH is a great deal more expensive. Elon made it go fast, the other manufacturers made their cars go fast safely.

 

[COdogman]

That list was from 2018-2022. Do you not see a problem with that?

Model Y was an all-time high price and very desirable as a vehicle.

People would capitalize on this by buying model Y and selling it for a profit, hence why "used" model Ys had very few miles on them

So you have a high usage of Model Y combined with a selling of low/no usage model Ys, giving the impression that model Y is unsafe

Evasion. All manufacturers on the list were analyzed equally (without a sycophant cherry picking what they want to see from sales figures).

 

[pamalabama]

Evasion. All manufacturers on the list were analyzed equally (without a sycophant cherry picking what they want to see from sales figures).

Except not all manufacturers are created equal.

You pick tesla at a time when they launched a brand new segment that did not exist before from a company with record demand for vehicles.

How many other vehicles than model 3/Y could you sell for more than you paid for them.

 

[pamalabama]

So the testing tests the braking performance at 150MPH? There are two Tesla models that have the highest death rates of all vehicles. You cannot blame that solely on people. For example many reviewers have lamented the model S is severely under braked for the level of performance. There’s a reason why every other car that goes 200MPH is a great deal more expensive. Elon made it go fast, the other manufacturers made their cars go fast safely.

Building a 200mph car is hard and that's the reason that they are expensive.

The reason tesla is affordable is because there is no reason it could not be. Tesla technology enables those speeds without much effort and the car is a family sedan.

Tesla vehicles have historically always had higher top speeds than competitors and they have had no problems spinning the motors at such high RPMs.

 

[COdogman]

Except not all manufacturers are created equal.

You pick tesla at a time when they launched a brand new segment that did not exist before from a company with record demand for vehicles.

How many other vehicles than model 3/Y could you sell for more than you paid for them.

OMG I didn't "pick" anything It's a list of manufacturers and models with the highest fatality rates.

And that list has zero to do with resale value or anything else you are attempting to change the subject to.

I'm done wasting time trying to get you to stay on topic. Have a great day

 

[pamalabama]

OMG I didn't "pick" anything It's a list of manufacturers and models with the highest fatality rates.

And that list has zero to do with resale value or anything else you are attempting to change the subject to.

I'm done wasting time trying to get you to stay on topic. Have a great day

yes it does. Because they have no idea how many miles any of these vehicles have driven. So they get it from the only place they can. Used cars.

So then you are comparing say a honda crv which has been sold for many years, to a car which had come out in 2021

you can't buy another brand of car and not lose 20% off the lot so it is an entirely different scenario

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Building a 200mph car is hard and that's the reason that they are expensive.

The reason tesla is affordable is because there is no reason it could not be. Tesla technology enables those speeds without much effort and the car is a family sedan.

Tesla vehicles have historically always had higher top speeds than competitors and they have had no problems spinning the motors at such high RPMs.

Wow you missed the point. Building a 200MPH car is expensive because OF ALL THE OTHER STUFF THAT GOES WITH IT. You need a suspension capable of holding the car to the road, brakes to stop it and good aero that keeps the car controlled.

The model S has the speed, without all the other stuff that makes the speed safe. Again, many reviewers have talked about how under braked and floaty it is at speed. Rivian has the technology to go 200 MPH cheaply too, yet it’s limited to 110, 130 in launch mode, because traveling at those high speeds isn’t safe with the braking and suspension.

Elon doesn’t care about those sorts of limitations. He puts half baked self driving and half baked suspension and braking systems and then blames the user when they inevitably crash. There’s no mystery why these vehicles have the highest death rates of any manufacturer and it’s not the end user that’s the reason why.

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