Rivian vs. Cybertruck

[Colosaleen]

All I can say for the automotive community is "Thank God" the Ford Mustang Mach E and the Aston Martin DBX were also released in the same week. I mean the Tesla Truck made the Mach E look good and it looks like a week old bloated dead horse. The Aston Martin DBX is just a beautiful vehicle inside and out. Can't afford it even at 1/2 price once loaded up but has style and sex to it's purpose. Then again I like curves.

Guess I am playing my cards as the Tesla Truck is just too out there for me with no soul. Then again when Ford re-introduced the Ford GT40 concept car before the Ford GT production car, it looked an angle-ish and pukey-looking like this Tesla Truck but the end production product was pretty stunning. Same bad taste I guess with the first Aston Martin SUV by Lagonda.

So there may be hope for Tesla Truck but I can even come up with a tweak here or there comment to make it better for me. I would crumple the paper up and start over completely.

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[Brewbud]

The Tesla would have to change a lot from that concept to get me interested. Not even the price is enticing to me. The entry 39k price is good if you only want 2WD and a 0-60 time of 6.5 secs....and the self-driving option is another 7K. The faster AWD option is going to be up there near Rivian prices.

One more thought on pricing. The Fed EV rebate is dependent on each automaker's sales. Once 200,000 total EVs (not each model) have been sold by a manufacturer the rebate drops. This will definitely be plus for Rivian provided the rebate is still around when launched.

 

[EyeOnRivian]

What is just the EV plate fee for IL?

IL vehicle registration, along with a per gallon of gas tax, goes toward paying for road maintenance.

Prior to this past July 1st the EV registration was only $35 for TWO years. The only EV incentive IL offered.

As of July 1st ICE registration went up to $148/yr, an increase of $50, and the per gallon of gas tax was doubled - I believe from 18 to 36 cents.
For EV owners, registration went up to $248 PER YEAR, which had an effective annual increase of $230 ($248 - ($35/2)). (What was an incentive became a disincentive.)
Initially IL legislature proposed a $1,000 EV registration fee but was met with scorn and opposition from automakers and electric-car advocates and was lowered to $100 over ICE registration making it $248.

 

[Revelation]

The Tesla would have to change a lot from that concept to get me interested. Not even the price is enticing to me. The entry 39k price is good if you only want 2WD and a 0-60 time of 6.5 secs....and the self-driving option is another 7K. The faster AWD option is going to be up there near Rivian prices.

One more thought on pricing. The Fed EV rebate is dependent on each automaker's sales. Once 200,000 total EVs (not each model) have been sold by a manufacturer the rebate drops. This will definitely be plus for Rivian provided the rebate is still around when launched.

Well, in fairness... the Mid-range, 300+ mile variant is AWD and starts at $49k. The tri-motor with 500+ mile range starts at $69k; whereas the base Rivian starts at $69k. To get 400+ mile range in a Rivian you are going to be somewhere in the $80-90k range before any other options are taken into account.

There are also a ton of 2WD trucks sold in the US, so one cannot discount that as an option.

While I like the look from head on or at a slight angle; I am not a fan of the side profile of the Cybertruck. I have a CT and an R1T on reservation and time will tell which one I settle on.

 

[hitchhiker]

I placed a preorder on the R1T after the Cybertruck reveal. I currently have a Model 3 Performance and a Kia Niro EV. The driving dynamics of the Model 3 are an absolute blast. That's ruined by the build quality: huge amount of road noise, a stereo that would sound fantastic if not for all the rattles and distortion caused by interior panels, a driver's seat that creaks like an '87 Yugo, and on and on.

Then there's the horrific (lack of) support experience. I actually had a Tesla service center manager tell me they would not spend any more time troubleshooting the speaker or creaking issues "due to the age of the vehicle". That is not a phrase that should ever be used in reference to a vehicle purchased that same year by any representative of any manufacturer wishing to be taken seriously.

My Niro EV puts the Model 3 build quality to shame. It's whisper quiet at any speed, and just glides along without a hint of squeaking or rattling anywhere. After recently moving to rural Maine, though, my thoughts have been turning toward more rugged vehicles. I've been planning to get rid of both EVs and consolidate to a high performance pickup. Which one became an easy decision last night.

 

[Hmp10]

I think your Model 3 must be a defective example. I have driven a Model S for four years, and I have spent some time in my brother's year-old Model 3. Neither have any squeaks or rattles, although they ride stiffly and there is a good bit of tire noise. The only Teslas from which I have ever heard any squeaks or rattles are two Model X's I test drove, and then only when going over railroad tracks or driveway dips.

I almost wonder if a weld or bonding point was missed in building your car -- certainly inexcusable, but not something common across the whole product line.

 

[Hmp10]

Whether or not Musk made a huge mistake with the Cybertruck design will depend on what he really hopes the market for it to be. If he's aiming for tech fans who want to make big, even outlandish, visual statements with what they drive, he's probably right on target. If he's hoping this truck will take the EV revolution into the ranks of mainstream truck buyers as he claimed at the reveal, I think he's very wide of the mark.

I've owned one Corvette, two Mercedes SL AMG's, three Audi R8's, and had a Mercedes/McLaren SLS on long-term loan. I'm certainly not averse to driving vehicles that put a premium on looks and push the edges of practicality and the limits of the three-box configuration of ICE's. However, every one of those cars eventually became something I chose to drive less often over my sedans or minivans. Their low seating positions, tight headroom, sharply-raked windshields that almost touch your forehead just become tiresome rather quickly, especially for long-haul, non-recreational driving.

Humans are most comfortable sitting more upright, with legs dropping down instead of extending forward. They like a sense of space around their heads, eyes, and ears. They like to look at the world through vertical panes of glass, not steeply-raked planes.

Porsche made its name as a producer of sports cars. It's biggest selling vehicles today are its SUV's. BMW made its name for avid driver' sedans and coupes. It's boxy SUV's are its fastest-growing products. Mercedes made its name as a purveyor of high-end sedans. Its SUV's are coming to dominate its sales. GM is pulling out of non-SUV and truck sales almost entirely, and Ford is moving in that direction.

This is not the result of marketing or chance. It's the result of a growth in choice of body styles causing consumers to recognize, perhaps unconsciously, how they really like to sit.

I keep looking at that windshield and rear-seat roofline in the interior shots of the Cybertruck. it's a space that will quickly become wearisome once the novelty wears off.

 

[hitchhiker]

I think your Model 3 must be a defective example. I have driven a Model S for four years, and I have spent some time in my brother's year-old Model 3. Neither have any squeaks or rattles, although they ride stiffly and there is a good bit of tire noise. The only Teslas from which I have ever heard any squeaks or rattles are two Model X's I test drove, and then only when going over railroad tracks or driveway dips.

I almost wonder if a weld or bonding point was missed in building your car -- certainly inexcusable, but not something common across the whole product line.

Fitment and assembly issues are far from anomalous in the Model 3, especially earlier builds. You don't have to look far into forums, YouTube, etc, to find numerous examples. Road noise I could mitigate with a change in tire/wheel package, but that won't fix the wind noise. The driver's seat creaking is a common enough issue that the part has been redesigned. I can understand fitment and quality issues, they're still a relatively new and low volume manufacturer. Many of these issues have been addressed and improved in newer builds. Unfortunately, at least anecdotally my car is a fairly typical example from its production time. Even if my vehicle was some kind of edge case, the real issue I have is their absolute refusal to address any of these problems. They've likely spent more time and money telling me "no" than they would have spent addressing the problems.

Anyway, I didn't come here to talk about Tesla. I had already made the decision to move on to a truck. Despite my experience with the Model 3, I still wanted to wait for Tesla's announcement before making a decision. The Cybertruck is unequivocally not for me, so my decision has been made. I reserved the R1T and I'm excited!

 

[Hmp10]

You might be correct that the Model 3 issues you experienced were largely related to its early production date. My brother waited for the dual-motor version, so his was built about a year into the production run. My Model S was built almost four years after introduction, although I had one of the early dual-motor cars. A weld joint in the rear drive unit did later crack, but Tesla replaced it promptly under warranty.

This raises an interesting question about Rivian, though. I am an early reservation holder and will take an R1S as soon as it is available. However, I fully expect some early production issues, with all due respect to Rivian's taking its time to try to produce a problem-free vehicle from the outset.

In 2011 I bought an early version of Honda's fourth-generation Odyssey minivan. Honda was hardly a newcomer and had a reputation for stringent quality control. However, the early production runs let two significant problems into the market: the transmission shifting algorithms were faulty (and took Honda over a year to fix), and the windshields had a pronounced distortion in the lower right corner (which Honda never corrected for those early vehicles, although they corrected the problem in later production).

Apparently the R1S is going to come out several months after the R1T. As they share most of the skateboard components and all the body and interior forward of the B-pillars, I'm hoping that at least some early problems will be caught before the R1S becomes available. (Sorry early RiT buyers, but you're going to be the real guinea pigs.)

 

[hitchhiker]

You might be correct that the Model 3 issues you experienced were largely related to its early production date. My brother waited for the dual-motor version, so his was built about a year into the production run. My Model S was built almost four years after introduction, although I had one of the early dual-motor cars. A weld joint in the rear drive unit did later crack, but Tesla replaced it promptly under warranty.

This raises an interesting question about Rivian, though. I am an early reservation holder and will take an R1S as soon as it is available. However, I fully expect some early production issues, with all due respect to Rivian's taking its time to try to produce a problem-free vehicle from the outset.

In 2011 I bought an early version of Honda's fourth-generation Odyssey minivan. Honda was hardly a newcomer and had a reputation for stringent quality control. However, the early production runs let two significant problems into the market: the transmission shifting algorithms were faulty (and took Honda over a year to fix), and the windshields had a pronounced distortion in the lower right corner (which Honda never corrected for those early vehicles, although they corrected the problem in later production).

Apparently the R1S is going to come out several months after the R1T. As they share most of the skateboard components and all the body and interior forward of the B-pillars, I'm hoping that at least some early problems will be caught before the R1S becomes available. (Sorry early RiT buyers, but you're going to be the real guinea pigs.)

Mine is a Model 3 Performance, so also dual motor. It has a 10/2018 build date, 80xxxx serial. When I referred to many of the issues being fixed in later production vehicles, I was talking about more recent changes. I've heard better reports about cars built from Q3 2019 and on. But again, their refusal to stand by their product and make it right is the true issue here.

I'm fully cognizant of the leap of faith I'd be taking with Rivian. Since I've only just reserved, there will be a lot of them in the wild before my number comes up. So I expect I should be able to find some unbiased reports of quality before my number comes up. I also expect that companies that lack Elon's hubris will be more willing to stand behind their product. We'll see.

 

[Mr_funnypuns]

Sorry early RiT buyers, but you're going to be the real guinea pigs.)

guinea pigs that I expect will be treated VERY well. At least if they paid attention to Toyota’s successful roll out of the Prius, et al. Treat early adopters right, they become fanboys, advocates, evangelists, champions, and/or and promoters.

Treat them badly and they become trolls.

 

[Hmp10]

I, too, have a feeling that Rivian will address early issues promptly. I'm actually more concerned about their ability to keep up with service as their product line grows.

In the first year I had my Tesla, I had two minor problems come up. Both times a mobile service truck was at my house within 12 hours of my call, and the problem was promptly fixed. Later, when I tore off part of the underbody shield while driving through standing water after Hurricane Irma, Tesla came to my house to replace it. It was not covered by warranty, and I fully expected to pay for the repair. They refused to charge me anything. When I finally had a major problem with the rear drive unit, Tesla sent a tow truck to transport the car across state for service. Within a week, it was back with a new battery back and a new rear drive unit (inverter and motor assembly). It didn't cost me a dime. I have never had to leave my house to get my car serviced except for a 2-year routine maintenance check up.

However, that whole service landscape changed when the Model 3 came out. Tesla's service structure was overwhelmed with the spike in volume. It became hard to get service facilities even to answer the phone. And it took days to get on the service schedule for anything other than roadside emergencies. I was luckier that some. My mobile repair guy turned out to be the mechanic that had serviced my R8s at Audi, so we knew each other pretty well. He gave me his personal cell phone number. Later, after he transferred to the power storage side of Tesla, he still intervened a couple of times to get me a faster auto service response.

As with almost any other car manufacturer, the service you will actually get has a lot to do with who the local personnel are with whom you deal.

 

[Hmp10]

But again, their refusal to stand by their product and make it right is the true issue here.

I once had an Audi S6 that I got rid of after a year because of the persistent inability of Audi service to correct the problem of recurrent, unexplained battery drain. I had a C6 Corvette that I got rid of in 10 months because Chevrolet could never fix the problem of its going into "limp mode" repeatedly when there was actually nothing wrong with the engine. (There were also the problems of the targa roof leaking in rains and carwashes, the front right tie rod falling off, and the brake discs repeatedly warping.) I had a Mercedes SL55 that was in the shop almost monthly for reasons too long to list here but including two failures of the brake-by-wire system, one time causing the car to roll out of a parking garage onto a busy Chicago street.

Sadly, sometimes the answer is just to get rid of a car that is so plaguing you.

 

[Pherdnut]

What I like most about Rivian is that they seem to have learned more from Tesla's mistakes than Tesla has. Their body design and interiors are badass. Their commitment to ride quality is clearly above and beyond most automakers, certainly Tesla. And I get the sense that Scaringe knows how to hire and retain people he can trust to do the job without any micro necessary on his part, which seems to be one of Musk's chronic issues. Where Tesla's designs tend to fall victim to showmanship, Rivian pays extreme attention to details that matter. If the model X had been just a smidge cheaper at the minimum range I want, I would have been game, and I'll bet it would have been cheap enough for me without the motorized doors or the falcon wings which would do very little to enhance the experience of the car for me. I'm grateful to Tesla for making EVs exciting and practically ranged (if pricey at first) options, but as a company, they need to diversify their interests beyond range, 0-60, and gimmicks.

That said, I hope the Model Y and 3 make them a mint so Musk can continue with his ridiculous experiments. I have no interest in owning a Cybertruck but I kind of love that the minimalist envelope got pushed that far and that it actually exists.

 

[Pherdnut]

IL vehicle registration, along with a per gallon of gas tax, goes toward paying for road maintenance.

Prior to this past July 1st the EV registration was only $35 for TWO years. The only EV incentive IL offered.

As of July 1st ICE registration went up to $148/yr, an increase of $50, and the per gallon of gas tax was doubled - I believe from 18 to 36 cents.
For EV owners, registration went up to $248 PER YEAR, which had an effective annual increase of $230 ($248 - ($35/2)). (What was an incentive became a disincentive.)
Initially IL legislature proposed a $1,000 EV registration fee but was met with scorn and opposition from automakers and electric-car advocates and was lowered to $100 over ICE registration making it $248.

I can live with $248. Still chump change to what I used to pay annually in Minneapolis almost 20 years ago and our roads need help. Most commuters are probably paying a bit more than $100 more for the gas tax. The only buyer getting burned more in that equation is people like me, who don't commute via car, essentially making the car a luxury anyway. There's certainly no model 3 performance owners that should be complaining about paying their due to get potholes taken care of promptly. (see youtube video about the $2500 pothole)

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