Devils Advocate

[Mysta]

Don't conflate dealer markups with manufacturer price increases.

I'm not. But in the end they're making less cars and they've been making cars for a century. So dealers are marking them up. Rivian has been making cars for a few months.

Sponsored

 

[Mysta]

Semi related - I said on another post they couldn't backtrack due to the backlash that would cause and cost to undo it(orders cancelled by some of the earliest). But on Twitter there's a pretty big storm so if they can backtrack in any way they likely will but if they don't, you know they can't.

 

[ironpig]

As a Model S owner myself.. the Tesla is faster, better range, better tech, way more features, more practical for a daily driver/commuter, likely far more safer to drive in winter climate, better brand identity, I could go on.

I was buying the Rivian for everything *else* that the Rivian does that my MS can't and/or I wouldn't want to do in my 37PP Raptor, e.x. Towing, camping with family, road trips, light off roading, and the luxury of buying something.. different.

I appreciate the ramble, but it's just super unfortunate what happened today. Rivian will suffer for it on the market, they will lose 30%+ of their preorders, and will become a niche brand vs planet changer. People will not get programmed to buy $100k vehicles with mortgages on them.

Yeah I have an 8 year old Model S that I was going to sell when I got the Rivian. I also have a Toyota 4 Runner that is only 6 years old but just feels so old and slow compare to Electrics. So the Rivian was really going to replace both of those cars. Now I don't know. Seems silly to throw this much money at Rivian when they are unproven. Maybe I'll update my Tesla with something from Porsche or another brand and wait for the EV trucks to mature a bit. An electric Toyota Tacoma would be a day one reservation if it ever comes out.

 

[Mysta]

Yeah I have an 8 year old Model S that I was going to sell when I got the Rivian. I also have a Toyota 4 Runner that is only 6 years old but just feels so old and slow compare to Electrics. So the Rivian was really going to replace both of those cars. Now I don't know. Seems silly to throw this much money at Rivian when they are unproven. Maybe I'll update my Tesla with something from Porsche or another brand and wait for the EV trucks to mature a bit. An electric Toyota Tacoma would be a day one reservation if it ever comes out.

Yeah - honestly I think the Rivian is worth it on paper still. I'm a big fan of this suspension and hope to see more cars adopt it. But the added hurt is that not only would I have to pay more but the uncertainty this has caused as reduced the desire around stability of the company.

 

[ironpig]

Yeah - honestly I think the Rivian is worth it on paper still. I'm a big fan of this suspension and hope to see more cars adopt it. But the added hurt is that not only would I have to pay more but the uncertainty this has caused as reduced the desire around stability of the company.

Do you like your Taycan? I'm thinking about that as a replacement for the Tesla now and we'll just keep an ICE truck around for our truck needs. Going to go test drive one later this week. There are a lot of lightly used Taycans in my area which are reasonable priced considering.

 

[Mysta]

Do you like your Taycan? I'm thinking about that as a replacement for the Tesla now and we'll just keep an ICE truck around for our truck needs. Going to go test drive one later this week. There are a lot of lightly used Taycans in my area which are reasonable priced considering.

It's incredible, although the MMI is worse than Teslas I basically have everything set, use the sport chrono or autopilot functions on stalks and drive hard. Carplay works fine. If it was a hatch(sportback) I would be keeping it long term. But I was stuck deciding between configuring dream cross/sport turismo for 150k or doing rivian+sports car. Now the decision is much harder.

I've taken a 7000 mile roadtrip in it and it was a pure dream. Cruising down straight roads of Kansas at 90 mph windows up and isolated then next day blazing through remote mountains of Colorado with the windows cracked and just the sound of tires and the whir of the motors.

 

[AxelR]

Also to add on to the devil's advocate.

The original price, that MANY of us bought in at was 75k starting. Then the cybertruck stunt forced them to lower their target to 67.5k.

So really, they are just going back to their original price point when first announced.

I guess you didn’t go to the initial events way before any CT announcement. They already were claiming that it’s be a 69k entry point.
I wanna be a fanboy too but this is just ridiculous.

 

[ironpig]

It's incredible, although the MMI is worse than Teslas I basically have everything set, use the sport chrono or autopilot functions on stalks and drive hard. Carplay works fine. If it was a hatch(sportback) I would be keeping it long term. But I was stuck deciding between configuring dream cross/sport turismo for 150k or doing rivian+sports car. Now the decision is much harder.

I've taken a 7000 mile roadtrip in it and it was a pure dream. Cruising down straight roads of Kansas at 90 mph windows up and isolated then next day blazing through remote mountains of Colorado with the windows cracked and just the sound of tires and the whir of the motors.

That's great to hear. My Model S is a 2014 and I'm just tired of it. It's an early build and over time the quality issues are just hard to get over. I couldn't' do a loaded sport turismo either but that's the one I'd love. With more and more used and lease return models hitting the dealers in LA right now, there's a surprising amount of inventory to look at.

 

[Craigins]

I guess you didn’t go to the initial events way before any CT announcement. They already were claiming that it’s be a 69k entry point.
I wanna be a fanboy too but this is just ridiculous.

Did you read the thread I bumped? 69k was the entry point for the Standard battery pack configuration.

 

[Mysta]

That's great to hear. My Model S is a 2014 and I'm just tired of it. It's an early build and over time the quality issues are just hard to get over. I couldn't' do a loaded sport turismo either but that's the one I'd love. With more and more used and lease return models hitting the dealers in LA right now, there's a surprising amount of inventory to look at.

Yeah I'm sure some people are taking advantage of high used prices and selling(after they get the rebate) and some people probably get lemons like they do with all cars. Mine has been good. Upgraded to ALK/InnoDrive with function on demand and such. I just can't fit my dog in the back I'm pretty bummed. I do have this Model s refresh order still but I just can't pull the trigger on it, after a few teslas to a taycan they just don't seem exciting anymore. I actually also put a deposit on an a6 allroad that I WISH was EV or PHEV even. I'm really hoping Audi announces an A6 avant/allroad ev this year. There's not much else to look forward to.

 

[drivetorun]

Some additional arguments excusing (and not excusing) the price increase...

Not Excusing:
- When Tesla first was talking about the Model S (then Whitestar) around 2007, they said they were targeting a $50-60k base price. Based on some searching, they announced official pricing in December 2011 with the base 40kwh version starting at $57,400 (so with the federal tax credit, just below $50k). They got into real customer deliveries towards the end of 2012/early 2013. That means they went nearly six years from ballpark pricing to deliveries without significantly changing pricing. Certainly inflation wasn't as significant a factor during those years, but still not inconsequential. It should also be noted that when they delivered those 40kwh packs, they actually delivered them with software-limited 60kwh packs. Certainly that wasn't profitable for Tesla in the short-term, but Elon/management felt it was important to deliver what was promised as much as possible.
- You look at another US-made vehicle that punches way above its weight when looking at pricing: the C8 Corvette. The C8 started at $60k including destination when Chevy announced pricing in August 2019, which easily competes performance-wise with 911s that start at $100k+. Since that time, the 2022 now starts at $62,195 including destination. That's a 3.7% increase in what will be three years in a similar inflationary environment. Certainly, you can make the argument that it's a loss-leader/halo car for GM, they have huge economies of scale, dealers are charging mark-up, etc., but they also have labor unions to contend with, and Rivian has the advantage of capturing 100% of whatever increased price they charge for the R1 series (no marketing kick-backs to dealers, invoice to MSRP differences, etc.). I could see a rational argument be made for saying Rivian has to double the % increase compared to GM, or even triple it, but to increase at a rate 5-6x what GM has done over a similar time period for an equally brand new model on a new platform seems very excessive.

Excusing:
- When my dad purchased his fairly well-equipped Model S in Q1 2013, the MSRP was $86-87k. That was for a sedan with RWD, 0-60 in 5 seconds, 240mi of range, and from a new automaker at a time when there had been zero successful start-up auto manufacturers in decades. You take $86k 2013 dollars and convert to today, and you're around $104k. For the R1S, you can get a quad-motored, 310mi range, 3-row ultra-performance SUV from a company at a similar stage of its lifecycle for about the same price as a Model S 9 years ago.
- While you can't currently order them anymore, a Mercedes GLS63, which is similar in size, performance, and function as the R1S, granted, with less off-road capability, had an MSRP starting at $133k. Certainly Mercedes has better fit and finish, a more stable future outlook, etc., but you're effectively taking a chance on a new automaker for a 35%+ discount off a Mercedes, which isn't a terrible deal.

Ultimately, I think they could've raised prices by 7-8% on current pre-orders and still probably kept a decent amount of goodwill assuming it was appropriately explained. But to increase prices in some cases 20%+ seems like a gross error of judgement. Tesla understood at the beginning how important customer service was--heck, in the early days, their VP of Sales/Ownership Experience was a regular on a lot of the online owners forums to help answer questions and address people's concerns. I think Rivian really needs to rethink their approach here, and I hope they at least backtrack a portion of their price increase for a large number of the pre-order holders.

 

[timf]

I don’t think you do. I was an original 2012 MS owner, have upgraded 3 times since. You could indeed buy a $60k roughly MS with the smallest battery pack but they quickly did away with it if memory serves. Further, Tesla always honored their prices that had deposits prior to increases on their website. I'm sure things may be different now since the pandemic, I haven't bought a Tesla since 2019 but regardless, this is a bait and switch, Tesla didn't do anything like this to us early adopters.

I've seen reference to Tesla honoring prices repeatedly throughout the price increase threads, but it's worth pointing out that this is not true when it comes to the Model S and X refresh. Anyone who had the previous model on order in late 2020 when they decided to stop making them had to either agree to revised pricing or cancel their order. The lowest priced Model X went up at least $10,000. Tesla is not immune to these actions.

 

[drivetorun]

I've seen reference to Tesla honoring prices repeatedly throughout the price increase threads, but it's worth pointing out that this is not true when it comes to the Model S and X refresh. Anyone who had the previous model on order in late 2020 when they decided to stop making them had to either agree to revised pricing or cancel their order. The lowest priced Model X went up at least $10,000. Tesla is not immune to these actions.

You are correct--they also never delivered the rear-drive Model Y as promised. However, all of those things happened after Tesla had been producing vehicles for years and had built a brand reputation/positioning that could more easily stomach those broken promises. They did not do that to any great extent during their first 4-5 years of more mass production. Rivian doesn't have that same positioning in the market yet.

 

[RivianNowPlz]

I've seen reference to Tesla honoring prices repeatedly throughout the price increase threads, but it's worth pointing out that this is not true when it comes to the Model S and X refresh. Anyone who had the previous model on order in late 2020 when they decided to stop making them had to either agree to revised pricing or cancel their order. The lowest priced Model X went up at least $10,000. Tesla is not immune to these actions.

I'm just sick of THESE inaccurate statements. 3 months =/= 3 years and the orders under delivery were honored while newer orders were told to sign a waiver (while most still saw a discount as goodwill), and the rest to cancel. Tesla didn't after 3 to 4 years tell order holders that their $70k vehicle was now $90k.. on the contrary, after the 2020 model year phased out and to the point of the refresh there was also a Plaid+ amongst other trims condensed into 2 models. If you put $100 down in March and were told in JULY that there was a price increase based on a just released but previously unknown vehicle then BOO FREAKING HOO. For Rivian it's the goodwill of four damn years of lies.

So yes, tesla is immune and rivian will pay the piper.

 

[RivianNowPlz]

You are correct--they also never delivered the rear-drive Model Y as promised. However, all of those things happened after Tesla had been producing vehicles for years and had built a brand reputation/positioning that could more easily stomach those broken promises. They did not do that to any great extent during their first 4-5 years of more mass production. Rivian doesn't have that same positioning in the market yet.

A rear wheel drive Y that literally no one wants. It was a stupid idea then, and for sure a stupid idea now. Same with the m3.

Sponsored