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Are you excited or dissapointed?

Will you get the Launch Edition?

  • Yes, and excited to configure it

  • Maybe, I'll make my desicion once I play with the configurator

  • No, I'll wait for the cheaper or the 180KWh version

  • No way!, I'm so dissapointed that I'm canceling my pre-order


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Bobthebuilder352

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I’m a pretty new reservation holder. And wanted to say that while I personally would like longer range I think it’s a breath of fresh air to not have a manufacturer (Elon) to force the most expensive highest optioned version at initial release. Now the same applies for silly luxury options that I don’t want so we’ll see when configuration opens up. So far I’m excited given the price point but yah if I push up to $100k then it may be another story.
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Bobthebuilder352

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https://www.irs.gov/businesses/plug-in-electric-vehicle-credit-irc-30-and-irc-30d

Quoted from the website:

Internal Revenue Code Section 30D provides a credit for Qualified Plug-in Electric Drive Motor Vehicles including passenger vehicles and light trucks.


Are the Amazon vans classified as light trucks? I would say no, but this is out of my wheelhouse.
They qualify for this and likely some other incentives. Keep in mind that Amazon employs more folks in its tax/finance departments than there are probably members of this forum.
 

ajdelange

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Here comes a bunch more engineering stuff which probably will be of no interest to most but at the end there are some practical recommendations derived from the engineering considerations. Skip the geek stuff if you like.

From LGs spec sheet on the 21700 likely used by Rivian:
1605227278252.png

Even if this isn't the exact cell, it is likely that there will be at least a similar degree of temperature dependency.
I'm putting the link to the entire spec in here as this table out of context is clearly misleading: https://www.dnkpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/LG-INR21700-M50-Datasheet.pdf though I must say that this spec is about as clear as the Seoul street numbering system.

The key thing to understand here is that all the energy you put into the battery is there largely independent of its temperature. Where would it go? The thing that changes with temperature is the cells' internal impedances and they change dramatically. The specs on this cell suggest they change by a factor of as much as 30 between room temperature and -10 °C. This means that if you want to get all the energy out when the battery is cold you must discharge the cell slowly in order to keep I^2R losses down. My earlier comment about how confusing this spec is starts with the fact that they never state the capacity of the battery! In discussing charging and discharging they reveal that 0.3C = 1.455 A from which we can, of course, calculate that C = 4.850 Ah. The data in the table pertain to a discharge rate of 0.2C = 0.99A - call it 1 A for simplicity. The stated DC impedance for this cell is 30 mΩ at 25 °C so that if discharged at 0.2C the I^2R loss is 30 mW and as the discharge time is clearly 5 hrs at 0.2C the energy lost to heat would be 0.150 Wh. The minimum energy capacity of this cell is stated as 17.6 Wh and the I^2R losses amount to 0.8% at 25 °C so that recovery at that temperature is 99.2% - not 100% as the chart states. Now turning attention to the -10°C entry the number is 70% preceded by a greater than or equal symbol. This means that the manufacturer is guaranteeing I^2R loss of at worst 30%. This is commensurate with an increase in cell internal impedance by a factor of about 40 due to ion mobility - not, I gather, an atypical number at low temperature. Thus the spec, if you consider all of it, does not present any surprises.

Now if one discharges at 0.1C instead of 0.2C the current is halved and the I^2R loss goes down by a factor of 4. Instead of losing, at worst, 30% of the available energy to heating one would expect to lose 7%.

PRACTICAL CONSIDERATIONS

Battery capacity doesn't decrease with temperature but access to it does. Is there anything we can do? Yes and the obvious thing to do is heat the battery. This, of course, takes energy. Clearly the goal is to conserve range and so, equally clearly, we want to depart on a cold weather journey with a warm battery if that is possible. Keeping the vehicle in a warm garage is one method. Arranging home charging to finish just before departure is another (uses the heat dissipated in the battery internal resistance during charging). These may not be possible in which case the heat must come either from the battery perhaps supplemented by a heat pump if the vehicle has one. The design should definitely capture waste heat from inverter/rectifiers and motors and route it back to the battery.

Bottom line is that if you set out with a cold battery you will have to give up range until it is warm. And, of course, it must be kept warm. Keeping it warm may deduct from range (too cold for heat pump).

Until the battery warms up, keep your foot off the skinny pedal to the extent possible. With a 100 kWh battery 0.2C is about 20 kW and 0.1C with 1/4 the energy loss to I^2R is 10 kW. Or you may choose to adopt the opposite approach and stomp it reasoning that the higher dissipation will warm the battery faster.

Summary: The battery doesn't contain any less energy at colder temperature but you will have to give up some range because some of that battery energy will have to go to warm the battery.
 
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Babbuino

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After reading all the comments this week, I was thinking more people will be on the maybe side of the poll, specially since the 180KWh pack won't be available at launch. Im def surprised that so many people are "getting" the launch edition with the 135KWh pack.
Probably the 400 mile was on a wish list, vs the must have it list...
The number of preorders was at ~30K at the beginning of Aug before the LWU and Rebelle, im guessing that we are now >40K preorders.
Also if ~40% of people are getting the LE, could Rivian be ready to release >15K vehicles between the R1T and S before 2021 ends... I mean otherwise the Explorer is looking sexier by the minute.

Rivian R1T R1S Are you excited or dissapointed? SmartSelect_20201111-164659_Samsung Internet


Rivian R1T R1S Are you excited or dissapointed? SmartSelect_20201111-164822_Samsung Internet
 

electruck

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could Rivian be ready to release >15K vehicles between the R1T and S before 2021 ends...
Probably not by a long shot which is something we all need to keep in mind. Depending on how early (or late) your pre-order, there may not end up being that much practical difference in delivery times between the 135 and 180 with the delivery gap getting smaller the later the pre-order.
 

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Babbuino

Babbuino

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Probably not by a long shot which is something we all need to keep in mind. Depending on how early (or late) your pre-order, there may not end up being that much practical difference in delivery times between the 135 and 180 with the delivery gap getting smaller the later the pre-order.
I agree with that, when comparing it to Tesla MX on 2015, MX was producing 238 vehicles per week. I dont think Rivian will be far from this number. I truly wonder if the batteries delivery had to play a big part in not adding the 180KWh pack at launch since technically less vehicles could be made...
 

ajdelange

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Im def surprised that so many people are "getting" the launch edition with the 135KWh pack.
Probably the 400 mile was on a wish list, vs the must have it list...
After recovering from the shock my thinking has evolved from "no way!!" to "well if that's the best you can do I'll just have to live with it if I want the truck" and I do. I've changed my vote accordingly.
 

UT Rivian

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After recovering from the shock my thinking has evolved from "no way!!" to "well if that's the best you can do I'll just have to live with it if I want the truck" and I do. I've changed my vote accordingly.
I’m coming around to this line of thinking as well.
 

jarross

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I have to have the 180 kWh pack to meet my minimum requirements. I would prefer a 500 mile battery due to living in a charging desert and a somewhat cold climate. My adventures typically are about 350 miles round trip (including side trips) and there is currently only ONE L2 (not CCS) charger on any of the routes I take. Its really a reach with the 180 kWh pack.
 

cohall

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After recovering from the shock my thinking has evolved from "no way!!" to "well if that's the best you can do I'll just have to live with it if I want the truck" and I do. I've changed my vote accordingly.
I’m going to request you stick to your guns and wait for the larger pack to be available. I need you to be resolute with your convictions.


...and I want as few people in front of me as possible for the LE :)
 

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garthkoyle

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https://www.irs.gov/businesses/plug-in-electric-vehicle-credit-irc-30-and-irc-30d

Quoted from the website:

Internal Revenue Code Section 30D provides a credit for Qualified Plug-in Electric Drive Motor Vehicles including passenger vehicles and light trucks.


Are the Amazon vans classified as light trucks? I would say no, but this is out of my wheelhouse.
The [federal tax] credit begins to phase out for a manufacturer’s vehicles when at least 200,000 qualifying vehicles have been sold for use in the United States
Does that mean that Amazon is going to use up roughly 100k of those credits before consumers can use them? Is that why Rivian prices without the tax credits because they don't know who's going to get those credits (e.g. Amazon or consumers). Maybe the configurator will let you know if you're planned to get the tax credit based on delivery schedules (also based on the model you select)?
 

ajdelange

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It has occurred to me that if enough of us cancelled our orders based on this that Rivian might change it's opinion. We have polls here that show that most want the larger battery. Who in his right mind wants the smaller battery if you can afford the larger one thus the reason for offering the smaller battery at all is to make the truck affordable to those who can't throw money around as if it grows on trees.

But Rivian has the real data i.e. the pre-orders. It may be that the ratio of 135 to 180 orders is way lopsided towards 135. This may be the reason for not offering the 180 at first. But I doubt it. I think its a technical problem with the batteries or BMS.

I don't at this point really know what I'll do. At the moment I think I'll take the smaller truck.
 

ajdelange

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Does that mean that Amazon is going to use up roughly 100k of those credits before consumers can use them?
No because Amazon isn't going to get 100K trucks before consumers get any. Amazon's order is in several tranches IIRC.
 

garthkoyle

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No because Amazon isn't going to get 100K trucks before consumers get any. Amazon's order is in several tranches IIRC.
But it does mean that if you want to get the full tax credit, that you'll need to try and get one of the first 200k vehicles, knowing that Amazon is trying to order 100k of them (again no knowing the timing of those deliveries). Hopefully the configurator will shed some light on final pricing based on production and delivery for specific models and configurations.
 
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Babbuino

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I have to have the 180 kWh pack to meet my minimum requirements. I would prefer a 500 mile battery due to living in a charging desert and a somewhat cold climate. My adventures typically are about 350 miles round trip (including side trips) and there is currently only ONE L2 (not CCS) charger on any of the routes I take. Its really a reach with the 180 kWh pack.
Where are you at? Wondering if you are in an area where those adventure stations will be added
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