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ajdelange

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It's quite a leap to assume Rivian will be as bad or worse than Tesla - everything I've seen shows a great attention to detail.
Curious as to what you have actually seen of Rivian production technique, QC etc because as far as I know the plant isn't even built.

Equally curious as to what you have seen of Tesla. Have you ever owned one? Driven one? Ridden in one? Visited a Tesla factory?
 

DucRider

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Curious as to what you have actually seen of Rivian production technique, QC etc because as far as I know the plant isn't even built.
Exactly my point. Making negative assumptions on their build quality at this point is pure FUD.
 

ajdelange

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FUD: Fear, Uncertainty Doubt.
Fear? If Rivian turns out to be as "bad" as Tesla they will have 35% more complaints in the first 90 days that the average manufacturer. Is that something to be afraid of? Maybe in your mind but not in the minds of most rational people, especially those with enough enthusiasm about this product to put down $1,000 years before its birth.

Uncertainty? Well there is always uncertainty and nobody really knows what we will see until we see it. But it should be pretty clear to anyone with experience in tech that there will be infant mortality with Rivian just as there is with any other manufactured product, especially with one that is at the leading edge of the state of the art.

Doubt: I have no doubt that the experience of Rivian will be but little better than any one else starting from a bright idea and ending in a production BEV. They do have the advantages that they have been observing Tesla for years and that their president has a degree in automotive engineering but they cannot foresee the things that having built cars and having data on how their cars perform will teach them. Tesla rolls out new software every couple of weeks. Rivian will do the same. How can you think it will be otherwise? Perhaps you have no experience in tech.

Still wondering how you know all you do about Tesla's shoddy quality. Would appreciate your insights on what's going to fail and when.
 
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There's no doubt Rivian is charting a different approach & timeline in getting to market than Tesla.

The R1T and R1S were on the drawing boards and in development for years before they were launched at the L.A. Auto Show in November 2018, a full nineteenth months ago and still counting. Two R1Ts were driven from Patagonia to L.A. a year ago. Dozens of test mules have been driven far and wide. Many engineers have been hired from mainstream auto companies. RJ has graduate degrees from MIT, a leading science and technology university with decades of research in auto engineering. Rivian is moving surely yet methodically towards bringing the Normal plant back to life. Nothing is being rushed, prototype testing is taking place and, by 2021, a phased-in, thorough and rigorous quality assurance program and production launch can be expected.

All of that differs from Tesla's approach. Does it mean Rivian won't have quality, fit and finish issues? No, but they ought to be far fewer than what was true and is still true for Tesla. Rivian will bring a much more thoroughly engineered, tested and QC'ed vehicle to market than Tesla ever did and, to be fair, a Rivian is expected to perform well in lots of ways that a Tesla never could.

But Rivians won't be defect free. The vehicles are enormously complex in terms of their hardware and software systems, Rivian is a first-time auto maker, and no matter how much effort has gone into testing, vetting and quality assurance, some things - many things - will go wrong. At that point, as A.J. points out, White Glove service kicks in.

Like Tesla, Rivian customer satisfaction and vehicle quality may be at odds, but I doubt there will be orders of magnitude difference between the two, as seen in Tesla's case. Wishful thinking? Perhaps. But from the get go, top to bottom, Tesla and Rivian have taken very different paths forward from initial ideas through planning, design, development, engineering and, now, production. Tens of thousands of accumulated decisions and actions ought to make for big differences in outcomes.
 
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DucRider

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Still wondering how you know all you do about Tesla's shoddy quality. Would appreciate your insights on what's going to fail and when.
When did I ever say that Tesla's had shoddy quality and are prone to failure? (I'll ignore the built in obsolescence of the MCUv1 that is designed to fail and costs ~$3K to replace unless you go to a 3rd party)

We are (were?) discussing initial quality and there are numerous documented sources of paint and other issues as Tesla reushes product out the door. Sandy Munro is a good neutral resource, but there also many Tesla evangelists that have complaints about build quality and issues upon delivery.

Once again, initial build quality vs reliability are two distinct issues/discussions. Do I expect Rivian's to be completely defect free upon delivery with no flaws? Nope. Do I expect that they will have the significant paint quality issues that continue to be a common occurrence on Tesla's? Also nope.

My shares of Tesla have done quite well, and I am a fan of the company. But at some point there will be viable alternatives that will make them live up to the "luxury" moniker (IMHO, luxury denotes more than high price). As their market expands into less fanatical buyers, the willingness to accept some of the common issues buyers experience decreases. This is something they most definitely need to address.
 

ajdelange

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When did I ever say that Tesla's had shoddy quality and are prone to failure?
Tesla is notorious for somewhat shoddy workmanship,

Tesla has been on the verge of folding multiple times and only by fast forwarding (skipping steps)...

... delivering Tesla quality vehicles to Amazon is highly unlikely.
These statements would all seem to suggest that you don't think much of the quality of Teslas.

I'd still like to know if you have been in one.
 

DucRider

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These statements would all seem to suggest that you don't think much of the quality of Teslas.

I'd still like to know if you have been in one.
I've been in and driven all released models except the Y (including the original Roadster), and taken a road trip in an X. Used AutoPilot in various versions, and it is getting better but has a long way to go before I would trust it on its own. None of their vehicles to date have been compelling enough to me and my wife to make a purchase
We pay for a 5,000 sq ft exhibit area at the Portland Auto show every year and bring in a Tesla for attendees to sit in and see (Tesla does not exhibit at the show). We had a Model X for 2 years, then a Model 3 the last couple of years.
2020IMG_9347.jpg


I compile the data on all available EVs and have designed comparison sheets giving the basic information that is most requested

Model 3 LR:
1593138522304.png


Rivian R1T:
1593138361352.png


Many Tesla owners get good examples with decent fit and finish off the assembly line. Others are not so lucky. People so far have been willing (for the most part) to put up with those kinds of issues for a variety of reasons, but as the market matures, that tolerance will decrease (starting to see signs of that already). Price, performance, range, charging speed and network are Tesla's strong suits. Fit and finish is not.

1593137700238.png
 

ajdelange

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Used AutoPilot in various versions, and it is getting better but has a long way to go before I would trust it on its own.
With you on the second part of that sentence but not the first. It is noticeably worse in that automatic lane change does not work at all any more, lane change by the stalk doesn't work some times( "not available in this area"), navigate by autopilot seems to work appreciably less well than it did (had it notify me "not available starting in xxx hundred feet" in the middle of the off ramp) and, on a recent trip it would beep unexpectedly, and head for the side of the road. This is much worse performance than it delivered as recently as a year ago.






. People so far have been willing (for the most part) to put up with those kinds of issues for a variety of reasons,
The reason is that the cars are actually pretty good and I don't think the people that buy them are the concours d'élégance type.


but as the market matures, that tolerance will decrease (starting to see signs of that already).
We shall see but in any case we hope that Rivian will successfully bring some real competition into the market. Musk just seems to be pulling farther and farther ahead.

Price, performance, range, charging speed and network are Tesla's strong suits.
Perhaps this relates to the "variety of reasons".
 
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