Tesla FSD drives down railroad tracks, gets hit by train

[Donald Stanfield]

That's great - it's still not proof that FSD is generally safe and/ or safer than human drivers as a whole. There are just as many videos of FSD doing crazy, dangerous shit out there as there are videos of it "preventing" danger.

Stop confusing your personal FEELING that it is safe for actual PROOF it is safe. Tesla could end the debate by sharing data and if it proves to be as safe as Leon has been saying, it would provide a nice advertising point. So far they are doing everything they can to avoid doing that and there must be a reason why....

It's one step worse than this. Tesla is intentionally sharing dishonest data about the safety of their platform, purposely excluding 82% of total FSD incidents from their figures. If you have to lie about your platform to that degree any reasonable person can conclude it's because your platform is unsafe.

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[pamalabama]

That's great - it's still not proof that FSD is generally safe and/ or safer than human drivers as a whole. There are just as many videos of FSD doing crazy, dangerous shit out there as there are videos of it "preventing" danger.

Stop confusing your personal FEELING that it is safe for actual PROOF it is safe. Tesla could end the debate by sharing data and if it proves to be as safe as Leon has been saying, it would provide a nice advertising point. So far they are doing everything they can to avoid doing that and there must be a reason why....

They show data and you don't accept it. FSD has 4 billion miles of driving. 2 people died using FSD. Where are those 20-40 people who should have died with FSD? Not dead.

And they can claim that FSD reduces the chance of death. And you just don't accept it.

Waymo claims they reduce airbag deployments by 90% or whatever. That's not to say they don't get in a normal amount of accidents. They do. But they get in low speed non-dangerous accidents.

All accidents with FSD/Autopilot are reported to the NHTSA. The number of miles that FSD is in use is 4 billion. Even more for autopilot. You just don't want to accept these numbers because it makes FSD look good

 

[carsly]

That's great - it's still not proof that FSD is generally safe and/ or safer than human drivers as a whole. There are just as many videos of FSD doing crazy, dangerous shit out there as there are videos of it "preventing" danger.

Stop confusing your personal FEELING that it is safe for actual PROOF it is safe. Tesla could end the debate by sharing data and if it proves to be as safe as Leon has been saying, it would provide a nice advertising point. So far they are doing everything they can to avoid doing that and there must be a reason why....

Tesla has shared data, this is just one of my personal experiences, not a doctored or contrived video for any purpose. I own two Teslas and a Rivian, Teslas ADAS is the best I’ve personally experienced. That does not mean it’s perfext.

One thing I will note, again personal experience only, is that the rate of improvement in the last nine months specifically has been extraordinary. Go take a test drive, they are readily available, but please do supervise the system.

 

[COdogman]

They show data and you don't accept it. FSD has 4 billion miles of driving. 2 people died using FSD. Where are those 20-40 people who should have died with FSD? Not dead.

And they can claim that FSD reduces the chance of death. And you just don't accept it.

Waymo claims they reduce airbag deployments by 90% or whatever. That's not to say they don't get in a normal amount of accidents. They do. But they get in low speed non-dangerous accidents.

All accidents with FSD/Autopilot are reported to the NHTSA. The number of miles that FSD is in use is 4 billion. Even more for autopilot. You just don't want to accept these numbers because it makes FSD look good

We have been through this so many times. You have even ADMITTED they don't release full data and tried to send me to the crowdsourced data, so I don't honestly know WTF you are now doing claiming they "release data". They most definitely do NOT release data.

They make statements about what THEY claim is in the data they have never released and expect gullible people like yourself to eat it up and repeat it, which if this forum is any indication has been a successful strategy for them.....

"Data" would mean raw data on accidents, close calls, traffic violations, etc - you know, DRIVING.....

 

[pamalabama]

It's worth mentioning when you have a system that drives for 4 billion miles and has cameras recording 360 degrees. Every "fail" will be posted online whereas you never see regular car accidents posted. Why?

Because cars normally don't have cameras and no one would incriminate themselves

 

[Dark-Fx]

Every "fail" will be posted online whereas you never see regular car accidents posted. Why?

You're not looking in the right places for that, because stuff like this is definitely posted all the time.

 

[pamalabama]

"Data" would mean raw data on accidents, close calls, traffic violations, etc - you know, DRIVING.....

Because they don't have this. If the car made a traffic violation do you think they would know about it? Self driving cars don't commit traffic violations on purpose.

Humans break traffic laws all the time. All that counts towards safety are collisions which the car is exceptional at avoiding.

how do you know something is a close call if it never happens?

 

[pamalabama]

You're not looking in the right places for that, because stuff like this is definitely posted all the time.

What percent of cars have video recording capability? A very low percentage. What percent of teslas with FSD have video recording capability? Pretty much all of them minus legacy S/X

And if someone drives down the wrong side of the road and hits someone head on. Do you think they'd share that video even if they had it? Even if no accident were caused they wouldn't incriminate themselves. But if FSD does it, you can shift blame

 

[COdogman]

Tesla has shared data, this is just one of my personal experiences, not a doctored or contrived video for any purpose. I own two Teslas and a Rivian, Teslas ADAS is the best I’ve personally experienced. That does not mean it’s perfext.

One thing I will note, again personal experience only, is that the rate of improvement in the last nine months specifically has been extraordinary. Go take a test drive, they are readily available, but please do supervise the system.

They most definitely have not shared data. In fact they keep arguing in court they don't have to because it's "proprietary information".

Tesla releases a "safety report" that includes totally unverified stats they claim was pulled from the data. Considering the source, that cannot and should not be trusted. It's more advertising than data....

 

[pamalabama]

Tesla releases a "safety report" that includes totally unverified stats they claim was pulled from the data. Considering the source, that cannot and should not be trusted. It's more advertising than data....

Tesla compares to the only stat that exists in the real world. Accidents to accidents. Deaths to deaths.

No one reports close calls. Today in a parking lot I made a left turn and the car at the stop sign was not paying attention and started to accelerate into me. It was a relative "close call" that doesn't show on any statistic. How do you define a close call? Depending on your definition I have one of those a week or one of those a year.

FSD drives above the speed limit. Is that a traffic violation? Yes. Is it a safety violation when it is going the speed that 90% off drivers are going?

If you consider that humans commit so many traffic violations every time they go out, FSD is probably better than human by comparison. FSD stops for the full length of time at every stop sign. FSD is very slow to get above the speed limit whereas humans speed right away. FSD doesn't cut through residential neighborhoods driving above the speed limit because the navigation routing tends to prefer normal roads.

FSD does not drive excessively fast in parking lots.

 

[JM.]

Tesla compares to the only stat that exists in the real world. Accidents to accidents. Deaths to deaths.

You're ignoring feelings though, which are more important than facts. "But it did something that scared me!"

A friend had a similar Tesla save to what was posted here a bit ago. And I had one where it stopped me crossing an intersection with an incoming red light runner before I could see it. These are not data, they are anecdotes. At scale, the plural of anecdotes is...data.

 

[COdogman]

Because they don't have this. If the car made a traffic violation do you think they would know about it? Self driving cars don't commit traffic violations on purpose.

Humans break traffic laws all the time. All that counts towards safety are collisions which the car is exceptional at avoiding.

how do you know something is a close call if it never happens?

Nope. Wrong again:

The Radical Scope of Tesla’s Data Hoard
https://spectrum.ieee.org/tesla-autopilot-data-scope

To start with, Teslas, like over 99 percent of new vehicles, have event data recorders (EDRs). These “black box” recorders are triggered by a crash and collect a scant 5 seconds of information, including speed, acceleration, brake use, steering input, and automatic brake and stability controls, to assist in crash investigations.

But Tesla also makes a permanent record of these data—and many more—on a 4-gigabyte SD or 8-GB microSD card located in the car’s Media Control Unit (MCU) Linux infotainment computer. These time-stamped “gateway log” files also include seatbelt, Autopilot, and cruise-control settings, and whether drivers had their hands on the steering wheel. They are normally recorded at a relatively low resolution, such as 5 hertz, allowing the cards to store months’ or years’ worth of data, even up to the lifetime of the vehicle.
/QUOTE]

Teslas also have a separate Autopilot Linux computer, which takes inputs from the cars’ cameras to handle driver-assistance functions like cruise control, lane-keeping, and collision warnings. If owners plug their own USB thumb drives into the car, they can make live dashcam recordings, and set up Sentry Mode to record the vehicle’s surroundings when parked. These recordings do not appear to be uploaded to Tesla.

However, there are many occasions in which Tesla vehicles do store images and (in 2016 models onward) videos from the cameras, and then share them with the company. These Autopilot “snapshots” can span several minutes and consist of up to several hundred megabytes of data, according to one engineer and Tesla owner who has studied Tesla’s data-collection process using salvaged vehicles and components, and who tweets using the pseudonym Green.

As well as visual data, the snapshots include high-resolution log data, similar to that captured in the gateway logs but at a much higher frequency—up to 50 Hz for wheel-speed information, notes Hoogendijk.

Snapshots are triggered when the vehicle crashes—as detected by the airbag system deploying—or when certain conditions are met. These can include anything that Tesla engineers want to learn about, such as particular driving behaviors, or specific objects or situations being detected by the Autopilot system.
/QUOTE]

 

[COdogman]

Tesla compares to the only stat that exists in the real world. Accidents to accidents. Deaths to deaths.

No one reports close calls. Today in a parking lot I made a left turn and the car at the stop sign was not paying attention and started to accelerate into me. It was a relative "close call" that doesn't show on any statistic. How do you define a close call? Depending on your definition I have one of those a week or one of those a year.

FSD drives above the speed limit. Is that a traffic violation? Yes. Is it a safety violation when it is going the speed that 90% off drivers are going?

If you consider that humans commit so many traffic violations every time they go out, FSD is probably better than human by comparison. FSD stops for the full length of time at every stop sign. FSD is very slow to get above the speed limit whereas humans speed right away. FSD doesn't cut through residential neighborhoods driving above the speed limit because the navigation routing tends to prefer normal roads.

FSD does not drive excessively fast in parking lots.

Stop making excuses. We aren't talking about cruise control. You and others and Tesla are arguing that FSD DRIVES better and safer than human drivers. Prove it. Prove that FSD makes fewer mistakes than human drivers.

 

[pamalabama]

Nope. Wrong again:

The Radical Scope of Tesla’s Data Hoard
https://spectrum.ieee.org/tesla-autopilot-data-scope

Did you even read what you posted? Tesla doesn't know anything other than accidents.

Tesla collects video data just like rivian for training purposes. They don't record every close call event. They don't record accident avoidance maneuvers because those are things that they have designed to have high reliability.


Rivian doesn't even know that they get into accidents, hence rivian is not reporting any accidents to the NHTSA that happen in user vehicles. That seems alarming to me if anything.

Why does rivian not know when one of their cars gets into an accident while using the adas system? What are they hiding?

 

[Dark-Fx]

Rivian doesn't even know that they get into accidents, hence rivian is not reporting any accidents to the NHTSA that happen in user vehicles. That seems alarming to me if anything.

Why you gotta lie so much.

https://rivian.com/support/article/how-do-i-access-data-on-my-event-data-recorder

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