? [Battery 101] NMC vs LFP (chemistry, differences, charging habits, reality etc.) ?

[Electron]

In light of a lot of battery discussion lately within my circle and this great community, I figured that I'd make a post to consolidate a lot of this information here so that those new to EVs or seeking clarification can find it here.

For all the nerds like me, please feel free to chime in and share your knowledge and experiences.

Below is my post from another thread that I've copy/pasted over.

Thanks to @narmstrong79 for inspiring me to make this thread. Our great discussions about this would have been buried in the other thread and I think it would do the community a lot more justice to have a dedicated thread. A place where nerds like us and the new can hang out. As early adopters in this great and superior tech of EVs we all started from the same starting line at one point.

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I was always curious about why Rivian was a bit shy to advertise charging to 100% with their LFP packs on the new refreshed Standard and Standard+? There's no reason for this with the LFP chemistry.

It would have been helpful for Rivian to spend some of their marketing budget to make some educational videos on different battery tech etc., to better inform the new comers jumping into the EV World.

?

Rivian offers two different type of Battery Chemistries:

1. NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) made by Samsung SDI deliver high power output, high energy density, faster charging speeds, longevity, thermally stable, long life cycle, making it a good balanced chemistry. Jack of all trades.

2. LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) have a long life cycle that can be regularly charged to 100%, cheaper to produce, good thermal and chemical stability (can fully charge and discharge without worries), with it slightly lagging in cold weather performance, both in range and charging curve.

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Gen 1 (Samsung SDI 50g NMC)

Large Pack	NMC	131 kWh
Max Pack	NMC	141 kWh
Standard+ Pack*	NMC	121 kWh
Standard Pack*	NMC	105.9 kWh

* Software limited locked Large Pack.

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Gen 2 (New Samsung SDI 53g NMC)

Max	NMC	141.5 kWh
Large*	NMC	109.4 kWh
Standard	LFP	92.5 kWh

* Believed to be a software limited MAX?

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Don't overthink charging.

Especially with LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) packs, just charge the darn thing to 100% and maximize the full range potential.

If it makes you feel better (full disclosure it'd apply to me too) you could charge it to 90% daily, with a few 100% charges during the week to keep the BMS (Battery management system) calibration happy. If you're leasing, throw it all out the window, who cares, just charge to 100% and live life!

LFPs due to its battery chemistry are fine at 100%.

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[Electron]

For those interested in all the battery nerd stuff, let's keep it simple.

If you purchased/cash/financed/leased to buy out for sure a LPF (new refreshed Standard), just charge it to 90% daily if you plan on keeping the rig and to 100% a few times a week, enjoy life, enjoy your Rivian, and be happy taking advantage of the full range.

If you're LEASING, WHO CARES?! JUST CHARGE TO 100%! QUIT OVER THINKING IT AND JUST ENJOY EVERY BIT OF YOUR RIVIAN AND DON'T LET CHARGING GET IN THE WAY. JUST KEEP THAT SLIDER TO 100%! IT'S A LEASE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. NOT YOUR PROBLEM!

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If you have a NMC ( Nickel Manganese Cobalt ) pack (All R1x, that's not a new refreshed Standard), here is my charging and usage habits.

For around town stuff I keep my utilization between 40%-60%. (NMC batteries are actually happiest between 30%-50% (neutral / not stressed / balanced), but that's major nerd level preservation if one is actually planning on keeping the car until the wheels fall off.

All the Teslas (NCA) that I've traded in or sold, using Recurrent all had among the best battery health so it was a real perk for when it came to selling the cars. (Only charged to 80% max when actually needed, but stuck with the 40%-60% utilization habit for when around town.)

(Example of what NOT to do: You have these idiot stealerships keeping all their used EVs w/ NMC and NCA batteries charged to 100% sitting on the lot, getting sold to uninformed EV buyers. I've also went into test drive several EVs with them below 10% SoC, which is really bad for both NMC & NCA packs, arguably worse than charging to 100% daily.)

If I know I'll be heading out of town, I charge to 80%-90%, which is way more than enough to get to the next Super Charger with my arrival SoC (State of Charge) being between ~12%-20%. Your charging curve will be much faster when at a lower SoC.

As mentioned above just try not to let your SoC fall below 10% as that's arguably worse than keeping the "balloon inflated" to 100% all the time.

There is no need to charge to 100% if you're arriving at the Charger in a high state of SoC (State of Charge) as your charging curve will be slower, especially after 80%. You'll waste more time twirling your thumbs with a slow charge curve.

So if you're just hopping from charger to charger and able to get by with 80%, there is no need to charge beyond 80%. Just don't as it may waste more time actually due to the slow charging curve after 80%.

Another thing to keep in mind as well. If you're at your last charger before getting home from a trip, there is no need to charge your car more than you need to. I just charge my EVs, just enough to get home right at 10%-12% SoC. Why top off at a super charger that costs 3x, 4x, 5x etc., more when you're home rate is cheaper right? It's a total waste to charge too much at your last stop.

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Okay back to NMC nerd battery stuff:

Due note that it's okay to charge to 100% (NMC) if you really need it, just don't plan on leaving it at that SoC for a long time. So if you do need 100%, charge to 80%-85% while you sleep, then slide that slider to 100% when you wake up in the morning so that it's 100% by the time you're ready to head out. This way it only sits at 100% for a short period of time. <- This is key. You just don't want that "balloon inflated" completely stretched to its max for a long period of time.

The general rule of thumb that I like to use is to arrive at the next charger or destination at ~20%; however, I personally stretch this to arriving at just above ~10%, usually around ~12%. You'll get used to gauging your routes and can start riding on the edge of 10% arrival in no time. That's when you know you've leveled up in your EV charging degree. Congrats.

In the winter months (cold weather) I always give myself a bare minimum of a ~20% buffer of SoC as the SoC is a lot more volatile in the winter, especially with LFP packs! So again, LFP pack owners just charge to 100% in the winter! Don't worry and ignore all the FUD. LFP is happy and perfectly fine at 100%!

@narmstrong79 is right in that the warranty is there for a reason and as a lot of you are aware, the battery warranty is very long. 8 years / 150K-175K on the NMC packs and 8 years / 120K for the LFP packs.

Now ready for the irony? There are older 2015+ Tesla Model S with the NCA battery chemistry with over 400K+ miles, on the original pack, frequently charging to 100% at super chargers with minimal battery degradation of only ~23%. That was then on older tech, keep that in mind.

There are numerous examples of newer Teslas with similar stories and it's pretty much accepted, because it has been proven that you can beat the heck out of the newer packs and they'll still last and keep going.

So the moral of the story, like what others have said, don't over think it and just enjoy your EV during your ownership period. Especially if you're leasing, it's not your problem. ?

Rivian uses Top Shelf Samsung Cells 53g (NMC) cells for the Rivian Dual, Tri and Quad w/ the Large and Max packs, hence the longer warranty over LFP cells. A lot of this is irrelevant for most unless you're really keeping your Rivian for 8 years / 120K+ miles.

Long live battery warranties. It's there for a reason. ?

 

[Electron]

[Fun fact: For those of you that have newer Samsung Galaxy phones, in Settings -> Battery -> Battery Protection -> There are 3 options to set your battery charge:

° Maximum (charges only to 80%)

° Adaptive (Times your charge keeping it at 80% until you wake up, then charging to 100%)

° Basic (charges to 100%, but it'll stop charging until the battery reaches 95%, then charge back up again to 100%)

The point being that battery preservation is a real thing, even though cellphone batteries are Li-ion.]

 

[narmstrong79]

Gen 1 standard and the no longer offered Gen 1 Standard+ are NMC

 

[Electron]

Gen 1 standard and the no longer offered Gen 1 Standard+ are NMC

Ah yes, along with the Max Packs iirc.

 

[narmstrong79]

Ah yes, along with the Max Packs iirc.

Gen 1
Large: NMC 131 kwh
Max: NMC 141 kwh

Introduced in Feb 2024 , software locked large battery pack.

Standard: NMC 109 kwh
Standard+: NMC 121 kwh

Gen 2
Standard: LFP ~ 92 kwh
Large: NMC ~109 kwh (believed to be a software limited MAX, TBD )
Max: NMC ~ 141 kwh

 

[Electrified Outdoors]

Great write up! LFP have more cycles for sure. Rivian doesn't recommend charging their LFP packs to 100% daily. I'm one of those guys that's really conservative about my batteries. I would probably do 85-90% unless the extra range was needed.

Rivian also will keep the battery conditioned in cold provided the truck is plugged into shore power. So as long as you have a place to plug in overnight cold is not as much of an issue.

LFP is an excellent option as 240-260 miles range is still good range. Didn't I read somewhere DC fast charging is up to 170kw? That's better than Tesla. As I believe their LFP packs max out around 150kw

It's exciting to finally see LFP packs in these trucks. It will help Rivian be more profitable on the lower margin models

 

[Electron]

Great write up! LFP have more cycles for sure. Rivian doesn't recommend charging their LFP packs to 100% daily. I'm one of those guys that's really conservative about my batteries. I would probably do 85-90% unless the extra range was needed.

Rivian also will keep the battery conditioned in cold provided the truck is plugged into shore power. So as long as you have a place to plug in overnight cold is not as much of an issue.

LFP is an excellent option as 240-260 miles range is still good range. Didn't I read somewhere DC fast charging is up to 170kw? That's better than Tesla. As I believe their LFP packs max out around 150kw

It's exciting to finally see LFP packs in these trucks. It will help Rivian be more profitable on the lower margin models

Thanks and I agree. At this point, whatever it takes to lower the margins.

I'm with you on being one of those guys with batteries, although with my previous LFPs I used to charge my model 3 to 100% daily and it showed very little degradation vs a NMC.

I think if I had another LFP I'd probably charge it to 90% like you for kicks and giggles if buying. On a lease I'd max it out to 100% daily.

I like that LFPs can be charged to 100% to maximize the range vs getting 80% of NMC.

Even with the new Dual Max at 410 miles (in theory), 80% puts it at 328 miles.

With the Dual Large at 330 miles, 80% puts it at 264 miles, which the Dual Standard with the LFP sits at 270 miles.

Roughly the same, so for a lot of people that Dual Standard with the LFP is a much better deal saving them ~$8000 if they're not actually needing the range.

Fun stuff.

 

[Spork8]

I was always curious about why Rivian was a bit shy to advertise charging to 100% with their LFP packs on the new refreshed Standard and Standard+? There's no reason for this with the LFP chemistry.

There's a lot we don't know, yet.
LFP has a relatively flat voltage range (3.0-3.3). Tesla has users charge to 100% to calibrate the BMS due to this. We don't know what information Rivian needs for their BMS, maybe they don't need to see the entire range. Nominal is supposed to be 3.2 and 80% would be close to nominal, so maybe that's what Rivian is planning their packs around. NMC has a larger range, largest could be from 2.7-4.2 but I am not familiar with the Samsung battery so it might be 3.1-4.0.
LFP max voltage (3.3) is less volatile than NMC at max voltage (depending on chemistry this could be 4.0-4.2), but it is still volatile. On NMC being at 100% state of charge frequently will accelerate battery degradation.

If it helps, I used to work for a Li-Ion battery OEM. I helped launch their formation process and some of the assembly processes. The rest of your post is pretty good. I've had conversations with new EV owners at DCFC about why they aren't getting 350kW when at 80% SoC, or ever. So what seems obvious for some isn't for most.

 

[IGR]

Great information, I just want to add why you should keep LFP pack at 100%

All of those batteries have computer that monitors their health (BMS), and part of the process is battery balancing, it is important feature to keep all cells in "sync" if they are not, the entire pack would prematurely fail even if one cell starts to drift.

It is done by monitoring voltage and adjusting charge current, usually retarding charge on that particular cell to bring it back in sync. And because LFP has relatively flat charge curve, it can only be done at very high state of charge or very low:

 

[Stan Evans]

First, this post and accompanying thread answered so many of my questions, thank you!

We are new Rivian owners, Dual Standard+ R1S, and could not be happier. Best car I have ever owned. Def an improvement over my much missed 2007 GMC Sierra (very sad to let her go, but she went to a good home) or my wife’s 2015 GMC Yukon.

As you can tell, we keep our rides for a long time and want to do the same with our R1S. I have been watching Rivian for many years and finally pulled the plug when we outgrew the Sierra and I overcame my wife’s fear of the unknown (sucks that it happened right after the price increase).

I am going to show my lack of technical knowledge with some of the statements and questions below, so bear with me…

What I know now (or think I know now):

2024 R1S with Standard+ battery pack = NMC 121kwh (which is a SW locked Large NMC 131 kwh pack)

My questions:

I thought I read, but was not able to confirm with Rivian, that Standard+ pack was a SW locked Max pack and the Standard pack was a SW locked Large pack. Any feedback here?

Regardless of whether the Standard+ pack is a SW locked Large or Max pack, is there a way to truly confirm this? I cannot get any answers from Rivian…

If my Standard+ R1S has a SW locked Large pack, should I not be able to charge beyond the recommended 70-80% for everyday driving? 121 versus 131 kwh is not a giant difference but I am just being curious

Thanks ahead of time for the feedback!

 

[Rivian_Hugh_III]

In light of a lot of battery discussion lately within my circle and this great community, I figured that I'd make a post to consolidate a lot of this information here so that those new to EVs or seeking clarification can find it here.

For all the nerds like me, please feel free to chime in and share your knowledge and experiences.

Below is my post from another thread that I've copy/pasted over.

Thanks to @narmstrong79 for inspiring me to make this thread. Our great discussions about this would have been buried in the other thread and I think it would do the community a lot more justice to have a dedicated thread. A place where nerds like us can hang out.

?

I was always curious about why Rivian was a bit shy to advertise charging to 100% with their LFP packs on the new refreshed Standard and Standard+? There's no reason for this with the LFP chemistry.

It would have been helpful for Rivian to spend some of their marketing budget to make some educational videos on different battery tech etc., to better inform the new comers jumping into the EV World.

?

Rivian offers two different type of Battery Chemistries:

1. NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) made by Samsung SDI deliver high power output, high energy density, longevity, thermally stable, long life cycle, making it a good balanced chemistry. Jack of all trades.

Gen 1 Rivians used Samsung 50g NMC cells on the R1T and R1S since 2021.

2. LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) have a long life cycle that can be regularly charged to 100%, cheaper to produce, good thermal and chemical stability (can fully charge and discharge without worries), with it's downfall being in cold weather performance, both in range and charging curve.

Gen 2 Rivian's (The new refresh):

Standard: LFP
Standard+: LFP
Duals: New Samsung SDI 53g NMC
Tri: New Samsung SDI 53g NMC
Quad: New Samsung SDI 53g NMC

?


Don't overthink charging.

Especially with LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) packs, just charge the darn thing to 100% and maximize the full range potential.

LFPs due to its battery chemistry are happy at 100%. LFPs lack in cold weather performance for sure as I've had years and years of experience with LFP EVs, so that's the trade off.

...

You mention Standard, Standard+, but then switch to motors—dual, tri, quad. Can you continue the logic with Large and Max?

Ah I see it in a subsequent post!

 

[Spork8]

If my Standard+ R1S has a SW locked Large pack, should I not be able to charge beyond the recommended 70-80% for everyday driving? 121 versus 131 kwh is not a giant difference but I am just being curious

If by every day driving you mean less than 100 miles, then 70% is a great target and battery pack size does not matter. If you feel more comfortable with 80% then that will be ok as well. The danger of charging to 100% every day is that at the higher state of charge you will be accelerating the battery's degradation. The LFP chemistry is a different story and can be at a higher state of charge than NMC chemistry can while not having as big of an impact on battery degradation.

 

[Riv E In]

My current personal practice for my dual R1S Standard+

1. Max charge 80%
2. Usually never let it get below 50%, then recharge at home level 2 back to 80
3. I don’t drive much, so I can go 1-2 weeks without ever charging
4. For trips I set max charge to 100 and schedule it to reach that at least a couple hours before departure (just in case)
5. The only time I get below 50% is on trips. I try to keep it to 20% minimum before the next charge.

This just works for me personally and my driving/charging habits, combined with what I THINK I know about the battery. Please feel free to shoot holes in my practice or tell me why I’m wrong.

 

[R1Sky Business]

In light of a lot of battery discussion lately within my circle and this great community, I figured that I'd make a post to consolidate a lot of this information here so that those new to EVs or seeking clarification can find it here.

For all the nerds like me, please feel free to chime in and share your knowledge and experiences.

Below is my post from another thread that I've copy/pasted over.

Thanks to @narmstrong79 for inspiring me to make this thread. Our great discussions about this would have been buried in the other thread and I think it would do the community a lot more justice to have a dedicated thread. A place where nerds like us can hang out.

?

I was always curious about why Rivian was a bit shy to advertise charging to 100% with their LFP packs on the new refreshed Standard and Standard+? There's no reason for this with the LFP chemistry.

It would have been helpful for Rivian to spend some of their marketing budget to make some educational videos on different battery tech etc., to better inform the new comers jumping into the EV World.

?

Rivian offers two different type of Battery Chemistries:

1. NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) made by Samsung SDI deliver high power output, high energy density, longevity, thermally stable, long life cycle, making it a good balanced chemistry. Jack of all trades.

Gen 1 Rivians used Samsung 50g NMC cells on the R1T and R1S since 2021.

2. LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) have a long life cycle that can be regularly charged to 100%, cheaper to produce, good thermal and chemical stability (can fully charge and discharge without worries), with it's downfall being in cold weather performance, both in range and charging curve.

Gen 2 Rivian's (The new refresh):

Standard: LFP
Standard+: LFP
Duals: New Samsung SDI 53g NMC
Tri: New Samsung SDI 53g NMC
Quad: New Samsung SDI 53g NMC

?


Don't overthink charging.

Especially with LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) packs, just charge the darn thing to 100% and maximize the full range potential.

LFPs due to its battery chemistry are happy at 100%. LFPs lack in cold weather performance for sure as I've had years and years of experience with LFP EVs, so that's the trade off.

...

So Standard + is lfp.....315 miles of actual usable range......?

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