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CommodoreAmiga

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All we can do is speculate, but again, being an optimist, I'm wondering if EPA questioned Rivian's range/efficiency claims and wanted additional data to back up claim that Rivian had not collected, or collected sufficiently according to EPA. I have never submitted a system for EPA certification, but assume there is likely some extrapolation of real world test data which EPA would want keep as minimal as possible. Interpolation is generally safe, extrapolation can get dangerous quickly and the EPA (and US GOV for that matter) are risk adverse by nature.
I have no experience with EPA testing, so this is all just pulled from my cake-area....

However, it has been my impression that the EPA testing did rely/trust the manufacturers to mostly self-regulate. That's why we saw manufacturers like VW game the system, and Tesla's EPA results are so much more "optimistic" compared to other brands.
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DuckTruck

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And the award for most overly tested new product goes to... RIVIAN!, and the lineup of R1 vehicles!
@DuckTruck did you secretly take the open position for director of unusual testing?
I've applied for it, and I'd love that job! But again, while my new phone remains fully charged, I'M STILL WAITING FOR A CALL FROM RIVIAN!!!
ANY CALL!!!


Whew.... Now I feel better!
?
 

SeaGeo

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The EPA system is done on a Dyno. If they use the 5 cycle test (which Tesla does) they can include coefficients from real world data. If I recall correctly from reading the rules, if the use real world coefficients, they need to submit those to the EPA for approval.

As far as I can tell from quickly scanning the procedures, there is nothing in the 5 cycle EPA coefficients that would prompt them to go to NZ for their coefficients.

As a side note, as with basically everything that's not confidential that out the U.S. gov outs out, the EPA testing procedures are available online with a little googling. No reason to make guesses as to what it involves.
 

SeaGeo

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Also, to further shoot this idea in the foot.

Why in the hell would they take the van to NZ for EPA testing? You know what they don't care about? Van EPA numbers. Chill people.
 

electruck

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How about more pics and videos and less useless speculation. You know, try to keep this thread somewhat on topic. :)
 

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jimcgov3

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How about more pics and videos and less useless speculation. You know, try to keep this thread somewhat on topic. :)
Boo. No fun! @electruck...

I was about to say that since we are speculating till our fingers bleed because Rivian is giving us NOTHING, that Rivian is in NZ because they are abandoning the US market.
 

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Boo. No fun! @electruck...

I was about to say that since we are speculating till our fingers bleed because Rivian is giving us NOTHING, that Rivian is in NZ because they are abandoning the US market.

Its because vehicles had carplay and they saw your comment! Not good enough for Jim, abandon ship!
 

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The EPA system is done on a Dyno. If they use the 5 cycle test (which Tesla does) they can include coefficients from real world data. If I recall correctly from reading the rules, if the use real world coefficients, they need to submit those to the EPA for approval.

As far as I can tell from quickly scanning the procedures, there is nothing in the 5 cycle EPA coefficients that would prompt them to go to NZ for their coefficients.

As a side note, as with basically everything that's not confidential that out the U.S. gov outs out, the EPA testing procedures are available online with a little googling. No reason to make guesses as to what it involves.
Brice,

Your entry inspired me to Google the EPA information and I found the following confirmation of what you were talking about within their FAQ section:

" Why is my gas mileage lower than the EPA rating? What are the factors that affect fuel economy? And how do you determine your vehicle's fuel economy?
"Fuel economy is measured under controlled conditions in a laboratory using a standardized test procedure specified by federal law. Manufacturers test their own vehicles—usually pre-production prototypes—and report the results to EPA. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of them through their own tests at the National Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Laboratory NVFEL ."

Granted, some of the EPA's testing is designed to determine CO2 and other pollutant outputs, but the indoor dyno, with temperature controlled inputs (to simulate nature), seems to be the way the EPA goes about confirming manufaturers' mileage ratings as well. Perhaps Rivian is simply performing real-world cold weather testing that they, as Skyote pointed out, decided to wait on until they had actual production vehicles, rather than relying on pre-production prototypes.

While they could have performed such testing on a dyno, going to New Zealand may have allowed them two very important advantages: 1. Real-world, production-vehicle numbers that should easily be replicated by owners, and, 2. A foothold into the psyche of the Kiwis, and others down under. I have to believe that if a company gets a foothold in New Zealand, they're on the radar of everyone in Australia, as well. This is a photo-op to have these vehicles seen on their soil ahead of any other EV Pickup/SUV/Ficto-truck from other manufacturers. That should get some major buzz going.

As a side note, I find it odd that the EPA would only test, or confirm 10 to 15% of the manufacturers' mileage claims. I can't imagine the TSA screening only 10 to 15% of the people coming through an airport, or the CDC mandating only 10 to 15% of the population needing to mask up to stop the spread. That said, this is the same government that requires labeling on fire extinguishers to let us know that they are never to be used as suppositories. Nuff said. ?? â›”
 

SeaGeo

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Brice,

Your entry inspired me to Google the EPA information and I found the following confirmation of what you were talking about within their FAQ section:

" Why is my gas mileage lower than the EPA rating? What are the factors that affect fuel economy? And how do you determine your vehicle's fuel economy?
"Fuel economy is measured under controlled conditions in a laboratory using a standardized test procedure specified by federal law. Manufacturers test their own vehicles—usually pre-production prototypes—and report the results to EPA. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of them through their own tests at the National Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Laboratory NVFEL ."

Granted, some of the EPA's testing is designed to determine CO2 and other pollutant outputs, but the indoor dyno, with temperature controlled inputs (to simulate nature), seems to be the way the EPA goes about confirming manufaturers' mileage ratings as well. Perhaps Rivian is simply performing real-world cold weather testing that they, as Skyote pointed out, decided to wait on until they had actual production vehicles, rather than relying on pre-production prototypes.

While they could have performed such testing on a dyno, going to New Zealand may have allowed them two very important advantages: 1. Real-world, production-vehicle numbers that should easily be replicated by owners, and, 2. A foothold into the psyche of the Kiwis, and others down under. I have to believe that if a company gets a foothold in New Zealand, they're on the radar of everyone in Australia, as well. This is a photo-op to have these vehicles seen on their soil ahead of any other EV Pickup/SUV/Ficto-truck from other manufacturers. That should get some major buzz going.

As a side note, I find it odd that the EPA would only test, or confirm 10 to 15% of the manufacturers' mileage claims. I can't imagine the TSA screening only 10 to 15% of the people coming through an airport, or the CDC mandating only 10 to 15% of the population needing to mask up to stop the spread. That said, this is the same government that requires labeling on fire extinguishers to let us know that they are never to be used as suppositories. Nuff said. ?? â›”
if you dig into the EPA procedures, the actual tests (even by the manufacturer) are done on a dyno. If they're doing what's called the 5-cycle test, then they can develop some coefficients using real-world data, but as far as I can tell, that doesn't actually need any cold weather testing.
 

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if you dig into the EPA procedures, the actual tests (even by the manufacturer) are done on a dyno. If they're doing what's called the 5-cycle test, then they can develop some coefficients using real-world data, but as far as I can tell, that doesn't actually need any cold weather testing.
Brice,

Thanks for the education on the mileage testing. I'd imagine the dyno testing is solid and equates well, or at least coonsistently with real-world numbers. That said, if you want to check those dyno results against reality, one way to do that is drive it in the real world.

Maybe New Zealand is that combination of available Winter weather and the chance to make a PR splash in both NZ and Australia. Also, while the 5-cycle dyno program may determine accurate data for on-road use, maybe this gives Rivian another way to test their production vehicles off-road to see how energy consumption changes once you leave the pavement. Not sure the dyno could help much in that way.

Regardless of their reasons for going to New Zealand, my greatest irritation is that they didn't call my fully-charged phone to extend an invite to me to come and help test them there. I would've done it at no charge to Rivian. Would've paid my own way there, hotels, meals, etc.

I'm fully vaccinated and, being semi-dyslexic, I'm used to driving on the wrong side of the road. Never convicted, but experienced. What more could they ask for?! Do you think any of those "Engineers" who know what they're doing went on their own dime? Doubtful! Maybe now that they know my skill sets, they'll take me to the UK when they go. Another bonus is that I'm beyond proficient in all of the native languages there!

It's still fully-charged.....
 

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Autolycus

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if you dig into the EPA procedures, the actual tests (even by the manufacturer) are done on a dyno. If they're doing what's called the 5-cycle test, then they can develop some coefficients using real-world data, but as far as I can tell, that doesn't actually need any cold weather testing.
The cold FTP cycle is one of the 5 cycles. It does look like you're right generally though that the cold temp test cycle is generally done on a dynamometer.
 

SeaGeo

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The cold FTP cycle is one of the 5 cycles. It does look like you're right generally though that the cold temp test cycle is generally done on a dynamometer.
Yep. It just is still done in a controlled environment on a dyno. No need to be shipping trucks to a cold location to do the cold weather test.
 

SeaGeo

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Brice,

Thanks for the education on the mileage testing.
My response was unintentionally terse and included a "you" which was meant in general to the forum. Sorry about that. I agree, Rivian could be doing whatever they want for cold weather testing in NZ. I'm just pointing out that there doesn't seem to be an reason to ship a truck to New Zealand for EPA reasons.

Glad you're back on the forum. Always good to have some light hearted and positive fun on here in anticipation of getting the vehicles!
 

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How about more pics and videos and less useless speculation. You know, try to keep this thread somewhat on topic. :)
is the van in rivian blue?
Why?
There is also an Amazon van parked in the background behind the R1T…taking the entire fleet for winter testing
Why is the van blue?
sounds like we have another conspiracy spinoff on our hands!
 
 




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