CCS is Dead Man Walkin’

[scottf200]

This makes it sound like these manufacturers and networks are going exclusively to the Tesla port. That's not the case at all. ABB and others have said they will offer dual port models to their clients. Some clients will buy those instead of CCS1 only. I doubt anybody other than Tesla will be building any Tesla-only stations for a while. There are still too many other cars out there from the other manufacturers. CCS1 is also still required for any station getting NEVI funding.

I hate the idea of everybody needing an adapter, but I absolutely agree that adapters should be allowed and readily available so anybody can charge at any station.

What is the current ratio of CCS1 to CHAdeMO at these chargers? 3:1?

Will that be the same with NACS to CCS1 since 3/4 of the EVs (Tesla+Ford+GM) will have NACS?

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[crashmtb]

It really amazes me how against this people are.

proprietary things marketed as a “new standard” are bullshit.

 

[Autolycus]

What is the current ratio of CCS1 to CHAdeMO at these chargers? 3:1?

Will that be the same with NACS to CCS1 since 3/4 of the EVs (Tesla+Ford+GM) will have NACS?

By the time Ford and GM have "NACS" ports built in the car itself, I'll be very surprised if those 3 still have 75% of the EV market.

But if you're suggesting 3 "NACS" for every 1 CCS1, that would mean NEVI-funded sites would have 8 "NACS" and 4 CCS1. No, that ain't gonna happen. Depending on what the cost is for the dual cable vs. single cable, I'll bet the vast majority of stations will be CCS1 only or maybe 2 CCS1 and 2 dual cable chargers, and will be no worse than 1:1 CCS1:Tesla connector.

 

[ohseedee]

proprietary things marketed as a “new standard” are bullshit.

I don't disagree that it would have been ideal for a non-proprietary solution to be the sole charging standard in the US, but at this point that's not realistic. NACS is just so far ahead of CCS (in terms of installation base) in the US that it isn't going anywhere and it would have taken more than a decade if ever for CCS to be the dominant connector and would have never been the sole connector. So the reality is we all move to NACS or we keep the status quo (which isn't working) indefinitely. Love him or hate him, Elon Musk played the long and smart game and won the charger wars.

 

[crashmtb]

I don't disagree that it would have been ideal for a non-proprietary solution to be the sole charging standard in the US, but at this point that's not realistic. NACS is just so far ahead of CCS in the US that it isn't going anywhere and it would have taken more than a decade if ever for CCS to be the dominant connector and would have never been the sole connector. So the reality is we all move to NACS or we keep the status quo (which isn't working) indefinitely. Love him or hate him, Elon Musk played the long and smart game and won the charger wars.

The tesla connector only has a high installation count because Tesla built out their own proprietary network of charging stations.

 

[ohseedee]

The tesla connector only has a high installation count because Tesla built out their own proprietary network of charging stations.

Yep. Years ago Tesla knew charging was the biggest barrier to widespread EV adoption. Tesla knew chargers needed to be available where you needed it, easy to use, and reliable for people to be comfortable witching from ICE. EVs and Tesla were always going to live or die based on charging. So Tesla did the smart thing and focused massive investment on their charging infrastructure. At the time no one else came close to this level of serious investment. And it paid off for them

 

[scottf200]

By the time Ford and GM have "NACS" ports built in the car itself, I'll be very surprised if those 3 still have 75% of the EV market.

But if you're suggesting 3 "NACS" for every 1 CCS1, that would mean NEVI-funded sites would have 8 "NACS" and 4 CCS1. No, that ain't gonna happen. Depending on what the cost is for the dual cable vs. single cable, I'll bet the vast majority of stations will be CCS1 only or maybe 2 CCS1 and 2 dual cable chargers, and will be no worse than 1:1 CCS1:Tesla connector.

Do think the sales of EVs for the non-NACS supporting cars will increase or decrease because of Ford and GM now pushing NACS as the "standard"? I would guess it would affect non-NACS car sales.

EA, EVGo, and others will have to adjust their forecast and profitability plans or face a lot of questions.

I think we will end up seeing NACS to CCS1 being 3:1 in a couple years. CCS1 will be the new CHAdeMO.

CharIN is on board: https://www.charin.global/news/char...o-supports-the-standardization-of-tesla-nacs/

 

[CharonPDX]

As another nail, CharIN, the body responsible for maintaining the CCS standard (and MCS, the Megawatt Charging System for large trucks that even Tesla signed on to) has said they would work to have NACS become an official standard:

Like the process for the Megawatt Charging System, CharIN will work to convene an open task force to align requirements with the goal of submitting NACS to the standardization process.

https://www.charin.global/news/char...o-supports-the-standardization-of-tesla-nacs/

 

[scottf200]

The tesla connector only has a high installation count because Tesla built out their own proprietary network of charging stations.

They knew it was critical for EV cars sales and debunk the myths.

They converted to prefabricated supercharger installations so they could make them cheaper and do the installation faster. This strategic plan was discussed by their head exec in that area at investor day. That is why they have rapid installation growth.

supercharge.info shows

We are 12 days into June!!!

 

[RexRemus]

When people say "NACS is so far ahead of CCS" - what exactly do they mean. Please be specific on details. As far as I knew/know - they both support data transmission, and similar power delivery capabilities, with CCS actually providing more peak power than your average tesla supercharger station - is that wrong? The plug and play capabilities of NACS I believe is more down to being within a single ecosystem than the entire inability of CCS to do such things as a specification.

Where does NACS greatly exceed the capabilities of the spec for CCS - not the implementation(s) we currently have - the spec? I'm not upset and demanding justification, I'm asking for the info because I feel like my understanding is apparently very limited/incorrect based upon what seems to keep coming up about it.

 

[Autolycus]

they both support data transmission

In fact, "NACS" uses the exact same communication protocol as CCS (Type 1 and Type 2). For NACS, Tesla is departing from its own proprietary communication scheme.

 

[crashmtb]

Yep. Years ago Tesla knew charging was the biggest barrier to widespread EV adoption. Tesla knew chargers needed to be available where you needed it, easy to use, and reliable for people to be comfortable witching from ICE. EVs and Tesla were always going to live or die based on charging. So Tesla did the smart thing and focused massive investment on their charging infrastructure. At the time no one else came close to this level of serious investment. And it paid off for them

tesla built out charging for their own cars because there was demand from their own cars. If they really wanted to encourage accessibi,ity, they’d have come up with the “magic dock” way sooner.

In 2014 or so, buddy elon saidanybody could use their connector, they’d just have to agree to cover all the maintenance on charging stations and provide free lifetime charging.

Costco had charging stations at some locations from around 2006-2011. They were removed due to lack of demand.

 

[Autolycus]

Do think the sales of EVs for the non-NACS supporting cars will increase or decrease because of Ford and GM now pushing NACS as the "standard"? I would guess it would affect non-NACS car sales.

EA, EVGo, and others will have to adjust their forecast and profitability plans or face a lot of questions.

I think we will end up seeing NACS to CCS1 being 3:1 in a couple years. CCS1 will be the new CHAdeMO.

In the next couple years (i.e. 2 years)? No, that's way too aggressive a timeline. In that timeframe, Tesla will still be the only manufacturer even building cars with the Tesla port in them.

Especially considering both GM and Ford have said they'll have adapters for Tesla->CCS, I don't think more than a few % of customers will even consider delaying or changing their purchase decision because of this.

But hey, I'm terrible at predictions and NEVER bet money on anything.

 

[SASSquatch]

Yes, CCS1 was always tenuous in NA since it was always way behind NACS is the number of charging stalls, in reliability, and in premier locations.

CCS1 made a bunch of early bad decisions (what can you expect from a committee?). The exterior latch gave it poor physical reliability. The lack of universal plug and charge made them rely on CC readers and screens, which compounded reliability issues. Early deployments used 50 kW when Tesla was already at 120 kW.

Compounding all this was that the vast majority of EVs on the road were Teslas, meaning CCS1 had an economic mountain to climb.

If Dieselgate hadn’t happened, there would be zero viable CCS1 infrastructure. Dieselgate made is seem possible, but incentives weren’t aligned. EA just went through the motions of building out a network, it didn't seem like anyone at the top there was paying attention to an existential challenge that was before it from day one. They just assumed they would win because they had government approval. Bad hubris.

I agree with you with the exception that dieselgate had nothing to do with CCS architecture. Building infrastructure was part of their punishment, but CCS already had gained momentum well before any of that.

CCS is the standard in the European market, which has by far the largest market share of EVs. Even tesla must use CCS in Europe.

You can read about the history here:

The proposal for a "Combined Charging System" (CCS) was published at the 15th International VDI-Congress (Association of German Engineers) on 12 October 2011 in Baden-Baden. CCS defines a single connector pattern on the vehicle side that offers enough space for a Type 1 or Type 2 connector, along with space for a two-pin DC connector allowing charging at up to 200 amps. Seven car makers (Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen) agreed in late 2011 to introduce CCS in mid-2012.[7][8] In May 2012, ACEA endorsed the standardization of the Combo 2 connector across the European Union.[9] ACEA were joined later that month by the European Association of Automotive Suppliers (CLEPA) and The Union of the Electricity Industry (EURELECTRIC).[10] Also that month, prototype implementations for up to 100 kW were shown at EVS26 in Los Angeles.[11] DC charging specifications in the IEC 62196-3 draft give a range up to 125 A at up to 850 V.[12]

The seven auto makers also agreed to use HomePlug GreenPHY as the communication protocol.[13] The prototype for the matching plug was developed by Phoenix Contact with the goal to withstand 10,000 connect cycles.[14] The standardization proposal was sent to the IEC in January 2011.[15] The request to use a PLC protocol for the Vehicle2Grid communication was made in September 2009 in a joint presentation of BMW, Daimler and VW at a California Air Resources Board ZEV Technology Symposium.[16] This competed with the CAN bus proposal from Japan (including CHAdeMO) and China (GB/T 20234.3, a separate DC connector standard), and none of their car manufacturers has signed up to CCS. However, China had been involved in early stages of the development of the extra DC pins.[14]

Volkswagen built the first public CCS quick-charge station providing 50 kW DC in Wolfsburg in June 2013 to test drive the VW E-Up that was to be delivered with a DC rapid charger connector for CCS.[17] Two weeks later, BMW opened its first CCS rapid charge station to support the BMW i3.[18] Since at least the second EV World Summit in June 2013, the CHAdeMO association, Volkswagen and Nissan all advocate multi-standard DC chargers, as the additional cost of a dual-protocol station is only 5%.[19]

Since 2014 the European Union has required the provision of Type 2 or Combo 2 within the European electric vehicle charging network.

 

[SASSquatch]

tesla built out charging for their own cars because there was demand from their own cars. If they really wanted to encourage accessibi,ity, they’d have come up with the “magic dock” way sooner.

In 2014 or so, buddy elon saidanybody could use their connector, they’d just have to agree to cover all the maintenance on charging stations and provide free lifetime charging.

Costco had charging stations at some locations from around 2006-2011. They were removed due to lack of demand.

Is it at all surprising that a Canadian is actually talking the most sense around here? [spoiler alert: NO!]

Elon only considered making the Tesla network available - not accessible since he clearly designed it only for Teslas with ports and cable lengths in the right configuration - when $$$$ was on the table. Magic Dock ony became a thing when the White House announced you had to make your network available to all EVs to get funds.

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