Tesla to open Supercharger network to non-Tesla vehicles

[NY_Rob]

The only way I can see to get the CCS net into shape is have a consortium of OEMs buy EA and manage it as if their lives depend on it which will probably, at least for a time, involve operating it at a loss.

Well, according to some here, the system is "fine" as is... but back in the real world, there seems to be a very lackadaisical attitude towards repairing faulty stations and a complete lack of maintenance to the point of hardware failure due to neglect. It reminds me of government operations where nobody cares about serving customers or generating revenue because they can't run out of $$ and no one can be fired.

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[2025R1S]

My guess is Tesla will only add CCS compatibility to new Super Charger sites over the next couple of years. This is because the new federal funding for chargers restricts the use of a proprietary plug. Tesla will add CCS compatibility to get around this requirement. So I wouldn't get my hopes up that tons of Super Chargers will suddenly be open to all EVs.

Non-Tesla DC fast chargers will probably add new capacity faster than Tesla will add CCS capacity.

Fun fact; Between Buffalo NY and Shanghai factory, Tesla can manufacture more than 25,000 superchargers/year.

It remains to be seen on the DCFC front. Lot of stalled installs across the country. I have no doubt that the dozen+ DCFC manufacturers can manufacture more chargers than Tesla's 25k. It is Teslas execution & ability to actually install these 25k units that makes them unique. We love Rivian; but the RAN network is sitting at just 3 locations right now.

Parts of the country have zero DCFC within 100+ miles, with stalled/vaporware DCFC promised at locations. And in these same locations, Tesla somehow has managed to install superchargers. Lot of times the locals blame the utility companies, but even if that is true; Tesla somehow navigated those discussions and got the SC installed.

Everything with EV's is easier said than done.

If I were to guess how this will be implemented; Tesla won't abandon the Tesla plug if they can. The compact design and size is a plus. Tesla will try and get approval for them to receive federal funds by selling a Tesla branded adapter, and making all existing chargers available to CCS cars with this adapter. Then for activation and payment; instead of installing screens or NFC readers at every SC; they will allow users to activate the chargers from their phones. Then to subsidize the supercharger network; Tesla will charge an inflated rate for non-Tesla vehicles. This strategy will allow Tesla to extract the most amount of cash from all parties, while being able to leave existing SC installs alone, and not having to change the design of the superchargers themselves.

From Tesla's standpoint; the last thing they want is for GM, Ford or Rivian to be the recipient of potentially tens of billions of subsidies for EV chargers. This level of funding could entice different companies to consider entering the EVSE market, and that cash could provide the funding necessary to create a real competitor to the supercharger network.

As we speak, I am sure Rivian is reevaluating their stance on RAN DCFC access. Tesla is doing this for the federal subsidies. Rivian would be foolish to try and start a closed DCFC network when they could get billions in subsidies.

 

[rodhx]

If I were to guess how this will be implemented; Tesla won't abandon the Tesla plug if they can. The compact design and size is a plus. Tesla will try and get approval for them to receive federal funds by selling a Tesla branded adapter, and making all existing chargers available to CCS cars with this adapter. Then for activation and payment; instead of installing screens or NFC readers at every SC; they will allow users to activate the chargers from their phones. Then to subsidize the supercharger network; Tesla will charge an inflated rate for non-Tesla vehicles. This strategy will allow Tesla to extract the most amount of cash from all parties, while being able to leave existing SC installs alone, and not having to change the design of the superchargers themselves.

My guess as well. And I am totally good with such an implementation as it would have the fastest possible impact to opening up the SC network.

 

[2025R1S]

For those of you who have used Tesla charger network extensively, how reliable have they been. 90% of the time the chargers working, nearly always delivering rated capacity, etc.?

Ultra reliable. The gold standard. The standard to which everything else will be judged. Never a doubt about the SC functioning. Not only is it reliable, but it is consistently reliable and a consistent experience. Tesla makes the vehicle, they make the chargers. There is no guesswork, it just always works.

Compare this to the DCFC experience. We all know how Rivian is suspected to have issues on certain branded EA chargers, which is a great example of an inconsistent experience. That example aside; we all have heard stories of how someone started charging and then 10 or 20 minutes later - they get kicked off the charger (it stops charging). To add to the misery, we all have seen CCS DCFC that charge a one time "connection fee" of $2-3.

This isn't exclusive to Rivian. Kia and Ford and VW all share in this inconsistent experience. When it works, it works. But it would be disingenuous to say there are not lot of teething pains with CCS EVSE.

The most common "issue" with the superchargers is that they can get ICE'd, or backed into by a vehicle (taking out the charger), or have their cables cut for the copper, or just be occupied by other vehicles and no available spaces. In all of these scenarios except being ICE'D, Tesla navigation would inform you of charger availability.

I've seen a 8 stall supercharger have one down for repairs, but never the whole bank of them.

The CCS DCFC network is "mostly reliable", but still a huge crapshoot. Just open PlugShare and look at all the reviews of the CCS DCFC. PlugShare even allows vendors that operate the sites to post notices on the application - telling users they are aware the DCFC is down and are working to restore service.

 

[manitou202]

Ultra reliable. The gold standard. The standard to which everything else will be judged. Never a doubt about the SC functioning. Not only is it reliable, but it is consistently reliable and a consistent experience. Tesla makes the vehicle, they make the chargers. There is no guesswork, it just always works.

Compare this to the DCFC experience. We all know how Rivian is suspected to have issues on certain branded EA chargers, which is a great example of an inconsistent experience. That example aside; we all have heard stories of how someone started charging and then 10 or 20 minutes later - they get kicked off the charger (it stops charging). To add to the misery, we all have seen CCS DCFC that charge a one time "connection fee" of $2-3.

This isn't exclusive to Rivian. Kia and Ford and VW all share in this inconsistent experience. When it works, it works. But it would be disingenuous to say there are not lot of teething pains with CCS EVSE.

The most common "issue" with the superchargers is that they can get ICE'd, or backed into by a vehicle (taking out the charger), or have their cables cut for the copper, or just be occupied by other vehicles and no available spaces. In all of these scenarios except being ICE'D, Tesla navigation would inform you of charger availability.

I've seen a 8 stall supercharger have one down for repairs, but never the whole bank of them.

The CCS DCFC network is "mostly reliable", but still a huge crapshoot. Just open PlugShare and look at all the reviews of the CCS DCFC. PlugShare even allows vendors that operate the sites to post notices on the application - telling users they are aware the DCFC is down and are working to restore service.

I agree that the SC network is the gold standard of reliability, but a couple of things to keep in mind. A lot of the charging issues with CCS are vehicle related not charger related. The CCS chargers need to work with a large number of different OEMs obviously, versus Tesla only works with one. The other common issue is with the Chademo plugs. These do not seem to be maintained with the same level of care as the CCS plugs and as a result their ratings suffer. Also a lot of the comments about poor CCS reliability come from people repeating what they have read, not what they have experienced. I know many people with non-Tesla EVs who don't have a lot of problems. Regardless the CCS stations need to improve reliability.

In regards to network coverage, it's a mixed bag. Colorado and Oklahoma as an example have much better CCS coverage compared to Tesla. So it's very much a region by region basis.

Personally I've been using the CCS networks for three years and have never called any of the station operators, and have always been able to charge. I pay attention to PlugShare reviews and try to avoid locations that seem to have ongoing issues, but it really hasn't been a problem for me personally. You need to remember that no one is posting all of the times they have successful trips on a CCS network, only the times they have issues.

Colorado CCS

Colorado Tesla

OK CCS

OK Tesla

 

[jjswan33]

I agree that the SC network is the gold standard of reliability, but a couple of things to keep in mind. A lot of the charging issues with CCS are vehicle related not charger related. The CCS chargers need to work with a large number of different OEMs obviously, versus Tesla only works with one. The other common issue is with the Chademo plugs. These do not seem to be maintained with the same level of care as the CCS plugs and as a result their ratings suffer. Also a lot of the comments about poor CCS reliability come from people repeating what they have read, not what they have experienced. I know many people with non-Tesla EVs who don't have a lot of problems. Regardless the CCS stations need to improve reliability.

In regards to network coverage, it's a mixed bag. Colorado and Oklahoma as an example have much better CCS coverage compared to Tesla. So it's very much a region by region basis.

Personally I've been using the CCS networks for three years and have never called any of the station operators, and have always been able to charge. I pay attention to PlugShare reviews and try to avoid locations that seem to have ongoing issues, but it really hasn't been a problem for me personally. You need to remember that no one is posting all of the times they have successful trips on a CCS network, only the times they have issues.

Love it.. These people want to sit here bitch about how unreliable the CCS network is but I am not sure they understand what unreliable means.

I mean it does sound like Tesla does a good job of maintenance and uptime on their network (no experience myself) but like you said I think outside of a connector or two being down at a given station most issues can be attributed to either vehicle issues (as you mentioned) or the fact that the vehicles software doesn’t have the same charger integration into the software that Tesla and the SC network have. A little research goes a long way.

 

[manitou202]

Love it.. These people want to sit here bitch about how unreliable the CCS network is but I am not sure they understand what unreliable means.

I mean it does sound like Tesla does a good job of maintenance and uptime on their network (no experience myself) but like you said I think outside of a connector or two being down at a given station most issues can be attributed to either vehicle issues (as you mentioned) or the fact that the vehicles software doesn’t have the same charger integration into the software that Tesla and the SC network have. A little research goes a long way.

And please keep in mind I'm not defending the CCS networks and claiming they are perfectly fine. They need to seriously improve reliability, but it's not the doom and gloom and many claim. It takes more research and planning than the Tesla network, but once you learn how to work the stations and what to look for on Plugshare it's not that bad.

 

[jjswan33]

And please keep in mind I'm not defending the CCS networks and claiming they are perfectly fine. They need to seriously improve reliability, but it's not the doom and gloom and many claim. It takes more research and planning than the Tesla network, but once you learn how to work the stations and what to look for on Plugshare it's not that bad.

Just to clarify my position because I don’t want to rub anyone the wrong way (more than I maybe already have)

Unreliable = You can’t trust that CCS networks up and ready for charging (even with checking in advance). So don’t go on a CCS road trip because there is a high chance you will be stranded
Fine (OK) = You might seem some down stations but generally if you do research you can rely on the CCS network to get where you need to go
Perfect (Excellent) = Rarely any issues at all

By that definition CCS is not perfect but also not unreliable in my opinion.

I agree that the CCS network could improve, coverage needs to grow and yes they could be more proactive with maintenance/repairs on down stalls (thinking EA) but I generally find the network as reliable (with planning).

 

[Gator42]

Love it.. These people want to sit here bitch about how unreliable the CCS network is but I am not sure they understand what unreliable means.

I mean it does sound like Tesla does a good job of maintenance and uptime on their network (no experience myself) but like you said I think outside of a connector or two being down at a given station most issues can be attributed to either vehicle issues (as you mentioned) or the fact that the vehicles software doesn’t have the same charger integration into the software that Tesla and the SC network have. A little research goes a long way.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here but a hardware failure vs a software handshake issue between vehicle and charger is a distinction without a difference to a driver relying on the charging network…

 

[jjswan33]

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here but a hardware failure vs a software handshake issue between vehicle and charger is a distinction without a difference to a driver relying on the charging network…

I’m talking about a R1T (for example) sending me to an EA station that is down for maintenance or construction because it can’t see live information for that network.

 

[2025R1S]

My guess as well. And I am totally good with such an implementation as it would have the fastest possible impact to opening up the SC network.

Devil's advocate; Tesla makes a CCS to Tesla adapter, for Tesla vehicles to charge at CCS stations. This adapter is only available in South Korea. People speculate the reason Tesla has not made this (insanely popular) adapter available outside South Korea is the leadtime/component availability to have hundreds of thousands of these units delivered to Tesla.

If this does become the path forward - a CCS to Tesla adapter (for CCS vehicles to charge at Tesla SC); I would watch the timeline for the Tesla to CCS adapter. I want to say the adapter has been available in SK for 7months+, and still no ETA from Tesla on North American sales.

 

[rodhx]

Devil's advocate; Tesla makes a CCS to Tesla adapter, for Tesla vehicles to charge at CCS stations. This adapter is only available in South Korea. People speculate the reason Tesla has not made this (insanely popular) adapter available outside South Korea is the leadtime/component availability to have hundreds of thousands of these units delivered to Tesla.

If this does become the path forward - a CCS to Tesla adapter (for CCS vehicles to charge at Tesla SC); I would watch the timeline for the Tesla to CCS adapter. I want to say the adapter has been available in SK for 7months+, and still no ETA from Tesla on North American sales.

There is an available CCS to Tesla adapter available here now. Not made by Tesla, but it's here and in use. I followed it a couple of years ago when I was interested in a very nice salvage title M3 since Tesla restricts salvage title cars from using the SC network. Lately I have seen numerous postings on Plugshare of Teslas charging at CCS chargers using this adapter.

 

[2025R1S]

Love it.. These people want to sit here bitch about how unreliable the CCS network is but I am not sure they understand what unreliable means.

I mean it does sound like Tesla does a good job of maintenance and uptime on their network (no experience myself) but like you said I think outside of a connector or two being down at a given station most issues can be attributed to either vehicle issues (as you mentioned) or the fact that the vehicles software doesn’t have the same charger integration into the software that Tesla and the SC network have. A little research goes a long way.

It is important to distinguish between consistency vs. station up/down/broken vs. bad charging experiences/unreliable. On all of these measures; Tesla still is the gold standard.

Consistency = charge curves, payment authorization process, consistent pricing

Bad charging experience/unreliable = CCS fast charger stops charging after 8 minutes.

Station up/down/broken = station is consistently having issues. Station is currently down.

https://www.plugshare.com/location/348568

https://www.plugshare.com/location/332668

These are decent examples of inconsistent, unreliable, and broken stations.

We are all making great points. But these points are teething pains (often). Like yeah - it kinda sucks there are 2 dozen+ models that each OEM needs to verify works on their respective EV. It also sucks that the charging manufacturers like ABB and ChargePoint have to test their models against dozens of EV models. Add to this OTA software updates that try and improve charge curves, add functionality like Tesla has with automatically charging without having to authorize (VW is working on this now, too); there are so many moving variables in the charging game with non-Tesla vehicles. It is almost guaranteed to be a somewhat inconsistent experience.

Crappy pricing models like what is observed in the Odawa casino example is just salt on the wound of the inconsistent charging experience. In this particular example; CCS cars have no alternative. This is the last charger before the Upper Peninsula. And once you are in the upper peninsula, you are in no-mans-land for CCS. This location is a must-stop location that people really depend on.

I love to use Colorado, California and other states with lots of $ as examples; but these places aren't necessarily where the problems are. It is these locations that are in more remote/tourism outposts/low population areas.

I know Now You Know videos are a little unpopular here; but they make a great point about certain popular (but low population) locations that still have just one or two DCFC that everyone is depending on.

 

[Craigins]

Then for activation and payment; instead of installing screens or NFC readers at every SC; they will allow users to activate the chargers from their phones.

This isn't even needed. The adapter can have identification built into it, just like the tesla vehicles self identify.

Just register the adapter to your tesla account and then it can be plug and charge just like teslas.

Doesn't make sense to throw in the added step of nfc/chip reading/phone app activation.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

There is an available CCS to Tesla adapter available here now. Not made by Tesla, but it's here and in use. I followed it a couple of years ago when I was interested in a very nice salvage title M3 since Tesla restricts salvage title cars from using the SC network. Lately I have seen numerous postings on Plugshare of Teslas charging at CCS chargers using this adapter.

Doesn’t Tesla keep breaking the third party CCS adapter with firmware pushes to their vehicles? Tom did a YouTube video about it and basically said Tesla doesn’t want anyone using the adapter and is actively trying to whack-a-mole it. He didn’t recommend anyone spending money on it because it can’t be relied upon.

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