Who might be swayed to Ford?

Discussion in 'R1T Pickup Discussions' started by skyote, Jul 23, 2019.

  1. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    Musk did not "start with billions". His father was an engineer and his mother a nutritionist. He made his billions himself through drive and ingenuity in several business ventures. If you think you can do that, have at it.

    The stock market does not think Tesla is a failing enterprise, putting a $40+ billion market cap with it. Even the most bearish analyst pegs the company value at close to $10 billion. Even if the car company eventually fails -- and it's possible -- Space X is a strong enterprise and the battery production unit is on track. Many great technology and business innovators had failures mixed in with their successes. Henry Ford's rubber plantation venture with Harvey Firestone was a colossal failure. Thomas Edison was a spotty businessman at best.

    I can't shake the feeling that your real beef with Tesla is that you can't afford one.
     
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  2. CappyJax

    CappyJax Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that is why I have a deposit on a Rivian. Cause I can't afford a Tesla. You are obviously successful without being able to put two and two together, so this article is about you.

    https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...life-success-is-far-greater-than-we-realized/
     
  3. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    #23 Hmp10, Jul 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
    I have no idea whether you really have a deposit on a Rivian or not. I do know, however, that a man who suggests Musk was given his billions when the facts can easily be ascertained with a 30-second internet search is trying to make a point on which facts have little bearing.

    You say it was "pretty easy" for Musk to take risks with his billions. Relatively few people who become billionaires put a significant part of their fortunes on the line with ventures as risky as starting a car company. Such an endeavor has one of the highest entry barriers in private enterprise and presents some of the most complex engineering and manufacturing challenges outside of the defense industry. There was nothing "easy" about what Musk attempted, and no one but a technical visionary would have done it. Whether Tesla ultimately succeeds or fails, it has already created the biggest waves in the automotive industry since Henry Ford introduced assembly lines.
     
  4. CappyJax

    CappyJax Well-Known Member

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    He started Tesla with billions. That is what we are talking about, genius.
     
  5. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    I know that. However, your comment that if someone gave you billions you, too, could start a losing enterprise suggested that the billions Musk had on hand were given to him.

    Tesla is not the only car company that bleeds capital at various stages. GM, Ford, Chrysler, Jaguar and many others do so. Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Mercury brands have all bitten the dust in an effort to keep the parent companies afloat. GM is pulling out of the sedan market altogether and abandoning it to the Japanese and Europeans who somehow manage still to sell sedans with little trouble. Making good vehicles and making a profit doing it are often separate issues, unless you want to argue that a Ford F-150 pickup must be a bad vehicle because Ford has had long-term profitability challenges.
     
  6. CappyJax

    CappyJax Well-Known Member

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    You are really stretching to protect your fanboyism.
     
  7. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    You have sought every possible opportunity to trash Tesla vehicles on this forum. I just find the views of people who actually own and drive them somewhat more convincing than the views of people who get their information from the internet or are fueled by some sort of grudge against the company. If you have read my posts on Tesla on this forum, you will have seen that I think the Model X was a colossal misfire and that my next EV is not going to be a Tesla because I have found its interior accommodations inadequate for its class, and I want to sample other offerings. I also think Musk is not the best person to be running the company he built, as his skills as an innovator have not translated well to running an ongoing enterprise. Despite this, I can also give credit to Musk's taking the huge risk, in part with his own funds, of trying to bring EVs to the mass market -- something at which the established car companies had thus far failed -- and building a car that changed the automotive landscape.

    You seem to hold the simplistic view than anyone who will not join you in trashing absolutely everything about Musk and the company can be written off as a "fanboy".
     
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  8. CappyJax

    CappyJax Well-Known Member

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    https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/21/t...rts-recommendation-over-reliability-problems/

    This comes from those who own and drive them.

    I have no grudge, I simply point out facts and data, and you all get your undies in a bunch.
     
  9. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    From this report you cited:

    "Owners appear to like, even love, the Model 3. It received top marks in CR’s recent owner satisfaction survey and also earned a positive road-test score. It’s a weird duality — and one the even CR acknowledges — that other aspirational, lifestyle and luxury vehicles share. Owners love the vehicles, despite persistent issues with the components inside them.
    While Teslas perform well in Consumer Reports’ road tests and have excellent owner satisfaction, their reliability has not been consistent, according to our members, which has resulted in changes to their recommended status . . . ."

    This report was issued about a year and a half after Tesla launched the Model 3. It noted that Model 3 reliability ratings were on a low par shared with such long-established brands as Range Rover, Maserati, and Alfa Romeo. Those companies have been making car for decades. Tesla is still a relatively new entrant employing novel technologies, and the Model 3 quality issues have been aggressively addressed.

    The report also contained this language:

    "In this very same survey from Consumer Reports, Model 3 was rated as the #1 most satisfying car . . . ."

    This is not very strong support for the proposition that Tesla owners do not like their cars.
     
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  10. CappyJax

    CappyJax Well-Known Member

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    I never said they don't like their cars, but my point is that being a fanboy for Tesla is pointless when they have so many problems. Tesla is riding the fanboy wave and when that ends, they will have serious issues.
     
  11. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    I had a Mercedes SL55, a C6 Corvette, and an Audi S6 that were in the shop far more times in the two years or less I owned each than my Tesla has been in four years. Twice my Tesla was serviced in my driveway by a mobile technician, and once Tesla had it flat bedded to their service facility from my garage and returned it there. Service-wise, it has been the most convenient vehicle I've ever owned to have serviced. Nor have I been charged a dime for any service, including replacing an underbody panel I tore off by inadvisedly driving the car through debris in the aftermath of Hurricane Irma. I think this is one of the reasons Tesla owners are reasonably tolerant of what reliability problems they encounter.

    There was a severe ditch in service response when the early Model 3s hit the road and overloaded the service system, but those problems are quickly being reined in, partly by manufacturing fixes on the assembly line and partly by the continuing expansion of the mobile service network.
     
  12. WTF_Over

    WTF_Over New Member

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    Well, it might be too late to try and turn back to the actual thread topic but l'll try anyway... Yes! Ford could lure me away if what they actually produce is comparable. They have deep pockets and an extensive Dealer and Parts/Supply Distribution Network already in place. Offering charging at their dealerships (Fee based or Free) could have them build out an infrastructure network fairly quickly that would cover a significant part of the US rather quickly. I love (from what limited data I have seen so far) the Rivian but I'm not married to it yet. I think you have to keep your options open in this early and changing market.
     
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  13. ajdelange

    ajdelange Active Member

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    Now that it appears likely that Rivian is going to be assembling the Ford it seems to come down to a question as to whose wrapper you want your truck in - Rivian's or Ford's. The answer to that will depend on whose wrapper is more appealing, which is going to be on sale first and, of course, price differences. It looks as if it's going to be somewhat similar to the situation with Toyota and Lexus.

    Of the three segments of the "transportation system" we are contemplating buying we know most about the vehicle segment and have a pretty good idea about the fueling segment but we knew nothing about the support segment until recently. It now looks as if that is going to be Ford. This certainly makes a lot of sense but is, of course, no more than speculation on my part.

    As an illustration of how this might work I'll mention that when I bought my last ICE SUV I needed to get it quickly. I went to the Toyota dealer and they couldn't get me what I wanted in time. So I went to the Lexus dealer and they could. Cost me more, of course, but time was the driver. When the Lexus needs repair it can go to any Toyota dealer.

    Sales is, in my definition of the segments, part of the support segment and we still don't know how Rivian will be sold. I'm guessing that this function will be done by Ford though that seems a little funny. Toyota keeps Toyota and Lexus dealerships separate and presumably does that for a reason which is, I think, to keep the luxury line separate from the main line. Lexus dealerships have fancier lounges. As Ford has an investment in Rivian now, and I expect that investment to deepen even, perhaps, to the extent of buying Rivian outright, they might do something like opening Rivian sales rooms in the same towns they have Ford dealerships but on the right side of the tracks. More speculation.
     
  14. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    Relying on Ford for service would make a lot of sense for both Rivian and Ford (which could amortize its EV tooling and training investment over more vehicle service visits). Whether Ford would want to put a competing model in its showroom is another matter. For sales, I suspect Rivian is going with an internet-based model, much as Tesla does. In fact, I think we've already seen signals that reservation holders will be asked to configure their final orders over the internet. (Tesla stores are more display and test drive venues than sales venues. A Tesla employee will take an order for a Model S or Model X but do it through the same website you would use at home. If you want a Model 3, you have to do it yourself. They will let you use one of the store computers or you can bring your own laptop, and they will assist you if you ask, but you place the Model 3 order yourself.)

    I have bought two Teslas over the internet, and I find it easier and less-harrowing than dealing with salespeople, whom I have sometimes found less informed about the vehicle than I. I even bought one of my Honda Odysseys over the internet after I found the local salespeople somewhat dodgy. With most cars so thoroughly reviewed today and with so many specifications and means to compare available online, I find that the only use of a dealer lot is to sit in and test drive the vehicle. If you can't get to a Tesla showroom, Tesla has a novel way of handling that. You order the car. It gets delivered. If you don't like it, you return it within seven days for a full refund. Actually, this allows a buyer far more test time in far more conditions than one would get test driving a vehicle off a dealer's lot with a salesperson sitting in the passenger seat and telling you which turn to take. I'm pretty sure the cost of an occasional return is far less than the cost of running showrooms in every sizable town.
     
  15. ajdelange

    ajdelange Active Member

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    #35 ajdelange, Aug 18, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
    Musk himself called it the company's "Faberge egg" and said Tesla would never make anything like it again. Yet it remains, based on this year's data, the second best selling BEV in the US only outsold by the 3. It's the third best selling plug-in if PHEV's are included even though it can be 3 times more expensive than its near competitors (Telsa S, Toyota Prius Prime, Chevy Bolt, Honda Clarity PHEV). It has been spectacularly successful in terms of what it was supposed to do which was to assist in putting Telsa (and thus BEVs) in front of the public and, being a high margin product, boost Tesla's cash position.
     
  16. ajdelange

    ajdelange Active Member

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    I would never have bought a Tesla without the opportunity to kick the tires and I am not at all sure that I will take delivery of my RIT if that opportunity be denied. You will remember that Tesla pretty quickly reversed its decision to close all showrooms (though I guess they did close some). I did not find the interaction with the "salesman" at Tesla to be anything like the traditional experience with an American automobile dealer's sales staff of yore.

    That said, now that I have kicked the tires and know the product I would probably feel comfortable ordering another Tesla on line. But I'm not going to be happy about doing that on a product of which I have never even seen an example on the road.
     
  17. skyote

    skyote Well-Known Member

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    I think the "Ford" Rivian will be a Lincoln SUV. Similar to the difference between Toyota/Lexus, I expect the Rivian will have a more luxury experience.
     
  18. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    #38 Hmp10, Aug 18, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
    I did not find Tesla sales staff to be as pushy. However, they were not the best informed on the product. I drove across state to test drive a Model S right after the dual motors came out. The car on the showroom floor had the single motor. The salesman opened the frunk to regale me with how huge the space was. I told him that I was interested in the dual motor, and I asked him how much the front motor would impinge on frunk space. He told me the space was identical. I had read up on the car extensively before my visit and knew better. He started arguing with me, so I pulled him out to the service lot to open up the frunk on a dual motor car that had not yet been prepped.

    Flash forward four years. I read Tesla was running a promo in which people who traded in an earlier Model S could trade it for a new Model S Performance and get the ludicrous speed upgrade for free. I started considering trading my Model S P90D and called the local sales store (recently opened) to inquire about a trade-in. When I mentioned the promo for ludicrous upgrade, the salesman knew nothing about it. I asked him to call Tesla HQ to confirm whether the promo was offered. He called back a half hour later to tell me it was, although store sales staff had never been alerted.

    I agree that a test drive is indispensable to most buyers and that a return policy might not be a satisfactory substitute, particularly for people who have to involve a third party in financing the vehicle. However, I think a salesperson has become completely superfluous to a modern day buying transaction. Their only real role is to convince people to spend more on a car than they hoped to and to lure them into financing deals on which the dealer gets a cut and high-priced dealer add-ons such as decals and "protective" treatments.
     
  19. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    I do not dispute this. However, "misfire" can mean different things to different people. I have twice test driven Model X's, trying to convince myself they would address the issue of cramped rear seating for older adults in my Model S. (They did not.)

    In my view an SUV that has less cargo space than the sedan on whose platform it was built is a misfire.

    A modern SUV that has noticeable cowl shake and squeaks going over a smooth railroad crossing is a misfire.

    An SUV that has rear doors that trade off torsional stiffness for flashy operation -- and that can leave one standing in the rain while it operates -- is a misfire.

    The Model S took the car press by storm and created the impression that Tesla was capable of creating world-class transportation that scored well on many factors other than its revolutionary drivetrain.

    In fairly short order, the Model X demonstrated that Tesla could also make a considerably more flawed product that sold at a premium over the Model S in return for little more utility than cramped third-row seats.
     
  20. ajdelange

    ajdelange Active Member

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    Which I guess is why the X outsold the S in 2018 and so far in 2019.

    I'm going out to look for some railroad tracks.
     

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