Possible First Peek at Rivian's Future Rally Model

CappyJax

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91% of deforestation is for animal agriculture. Again, you all are focusing on the wrong issues.
 

Hmp10

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The issue I was focusing on was your assertion that "the vast majority of them [BEV's] are powered by electricity that is produced from burning coal." I have given actual data from credible sources that says otherwise, but you have persistently refused to provide any credible source for your claim.

Now you assert that "91% of deforestation is for animal agriculture." I have checked numerous sites, including the World Wildlife Fund, the NASA Earth Observatory website, etc. These sites all list multiple causes of deforestation, which vary from region to region. Agricultural clearing is listed as the main cause in the Amazon rain forest and Indonesia, with logging and infrastructure expansion playing big roles in other regions. However, even where clearing for agricultural use is listed as the main cause, that encompasses clearing for crops as well as livestock ranching. In fact, in many regions the agricultural clearing is done primarily to grown crops to produce soy and palm oil. I could find no data anywhere that came anywhere close to supporting your claim that 91% of deforestation -- either globally or in any specific region -- is specifically for animal agriculture.

You have never given any source for your claim about coal generation of electricity. I suppose it's a waste of time, but I'll at least ask: could you give us your source for the claim that 91% of deforestation is for animal agriculture?

Are you going to fringe sources for your information, or do you just like to throw out numbers for effect?
 

Hmp10

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The Washington Post story is seven years old, and coal production has declined while renewable energy generation has increased significantly since then. Even so, the Washington Post article said that, even after several years of coal capacity expansion, in 2012 9.2 GWh of electricity globally was generated by coal while 13.5 GWh was generated by other sources. The arithmetic is simple. If this article was your source, exactly how does 41% of generation by coal equal a "vast majority"? It was not a "vast majority" even in 2012 when the article was written, and today the number globally for coal generation has dropped to 37%.

The World Bank white paper is from 2003 and only discusses deforestation in a single country: Brazil. Even that paper mentioned that land clearing for planting soybeans was on the rapid rise. I could find nothing in the article that supports your claim that 91% of deforestation in 2019 is due to "animal agriculture", even in Brazil -- much less in the world as a whole.

There is a lot more to good research than just googling phrases. The credibility of the sources must be assessed. Knowing the time frame in which the data was gathered and what might have happened since is vital. Knowing related information the source did not address is important. Understanding the bias of the author, if any, is necessary.

Coming across some number and throwing it out as authoritative support for an argument without regard to the above factors is going to leave you flapping in the breeze.
 

Hmp10

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Even the Phys Org report says coal generation has remained roughly steady at 40% on a global basis for the past ten years, in the range of the 37-41% I have mentioned. Moreover, it shows that while coal generation is increasing globally, that percentage increase slightly lags the increase in total electrical generation (2.8% vs. 3.0%), meaning the percent of total power generated by coal is actually ticking slightly downward. So I still haven't seen any support for your claim that the "vast majority" of EV's are charged with coal-generated electricity . . . or will be in the foreseeable future.

This article also says that coal generation is still declining significantly in the developed world, with that decline being temporarily offset by the rise in coal generation in the less-developed world (except for Japan, which is still under the shadow of its nuclear melt-down a few years ago). This article also predicts that by 2040 coal generation will be on the decline in less-developed countries as their economies develop to enable them to pursue more eco-friendly means of generation.

As for the USDA report, it is discussing issues related to organic soybean farming in the U.S. The only mention it makes of animals is to say 70% of U.S. soybean production goes to feed animals. It neither discusses soybean uses elsewhere in the world nor the fact that palm oil production is another major factor driving deforestation in some regions. None of the articles you are tossing out supports your very specific claim that 91% of deforestation is due to "animal agriculture" in 2019. ("is" is a present tense verb, you know.)

I will go away when you quit tossing out misleading numbers relating to electric vehicles that you cannot support.

You posted that "all" of us on this thread are focusing on the wrong issues. On what, exactly, do you want us to focus? Hand-wringing that electric vehicles are going to destroy the environment?
 

CappyJax

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You aren't able to see it staring in your face.
 

Hmp10

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Then explain it to me:

1. Show me how you get to the conclusion that a "vast majority" of EV's are charged using coal. Is it that you don't understand the difference between the terms "majority" and "plurality", and you meant that coal generates more electricity than any other single source?

2. Show me how you get to the figure of 91% of deforestation being due to animal agriculture. Were you just making a point about Brazil in 2003 and including crops used to plant food that can be used as fodder instead of just animal grazing land? If so, walk me through the data and the arithmetic that gets you to 91%.
 

CappyJax

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You have no interest in learning something new.
 

Hmp10

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While I've certainly learned nothing new from you except that you can't describe how you arrive at your claims, I have learned quite a bit new in checking out your untenable-sounding claims, and I have enjoyed the process.

I knew almost nothing about Brazil deforestation up through 2003, and I learned that second- and third-world increases in coal usage are partially offsetting, at least for the time being, the reductions of coal use in the developed world.

Perhaps there actually can be a credible argument made that EV's are not going to be the big contributors to a more eco-friendly world that some hope or claim, but you are not the man to do it.
 

Hmp10

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From the above article you cited, Cappyjax:

"Granted, there’s some slight good news in the new report, in that as renewables and natural gas have grown, coal has a smaller share of the energy pie overall [my emphasis]."

It's clear that different sources give a different account of what's happening with coal-fired power generation. Some say that coal generation has increased in absolute terms (due primarily to China and India), and some claim it's dropping (due to accelerating transition to natural gas and renewables in the more developed world).

However, all sources, including the ones you have cited, show that coal generation as a percentage of overall generation is still declining, although more slowly in the past few years. And no source either of us cited has claimed coal generation today accounts for more than 41% globally.

So . . . we're still a long way from any support for your claim that the "vast majority" of EV's are powered by coal-generated electricity.

Can you produce one -- just one -- source that claims coal-generated electricity powers even 51% of EV's anywhere in the world . . . much less the vast majority?
 

CappyJax

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Do you not understand how the grid works? Energy comes from all sources and is delivered where it is needed. So, every super charger tied to the grid is using coal.
 

Hmp10

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I do understand how the grid works. You apparently don't understand how percentages work.
 
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