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Moab trails?

BillArnett

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Yeah, that would very interesting. But I’m afraid the Rivian wouldn’t fare very well.
 

Coast2Coast

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Bill and others, why wouldn't Rivians fare well on Moab trails?

I understand why in general but not in detail. More importantly, and from a market point of view, there are numerous off-roading segments - high desert running, rock climbing, overlanding, glamping, dirt but fairly easily passable roads, like fire roads. I'm a complete novice in such matters, so I may be overlooking some important categories.

From a market perspective, Rivian can't serve every market nor should it want to. But it does want to serve as many high value markets as possible. If you were going to rank order Rivian's off-roading capabilities and market segments to serve, what would they be? Think of yourselves as marketing consultants to Rivian.

Presumably, some markets are best served by Rivian, and those capabilities should be built-into the R1T/S. Others may not be served directly by Rivian, but Rivian should make it easy for third-party firms to do so. And maybe there are some other capabilities that are so specialized that Rivian should not be spending any of its design and engineering time on them.

You guys know this stuff but most of us don't.
 

skyote

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Rivian traction should be second to none, which will help it excel in many (most) offroad scenarios.

There are two potential downsides to Rivian vehicles offroad. First is gross weight, which will hurt on softer surfaces and possibly some climbs. Second (and we don't know much yet), is articulation, which will affect ability to put traction to the ground & could be an issue at Moab and other offroad scenarios with rocks or uneven surfaces.
 

Coast2Coast

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skyote, does this mean we have to choose between on-road range with larger battery packs and off-road traction and versatility with lighter battery packs?
 

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Babbuino

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Rivian traction should be second to none, which will help it excel in many (most) offroad scenarios.

There are two potential downsides to Rivian vehicles offroad. First is gross weight, which will hurt on softer surfaces and possibly some climbs. Second (and we don't know much yet), is articulation, which will affect ability to put traction to the ground & could be an issue at Moab and other offroad scenarios with rocks or uneven surfaces.
So the new land rover defender weighs up to 5200lbs and I believe is a unibody and looks like it is performing nicely. They are known for their torque management system, but Rivian with their quad motor has the potential to be even better. Crossing my fingers that all the testing in Arizona has payed off.
 

skyote

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skyote, does this mean we have to choose between on-road range with larger battery packs and off-road traction and versatility with lighter battery packs?
Center of gravity will be low, which is good. However weight definitely makes a difference...not sure how much of a weight difference between pack sizes.

What I can say is that I've added 400+ lbs of skids/armor/bumpers/winch to a Jeep, and it makes a difference in sand/mud, as well as rock obstacles. I have the before & after perspective there, but it might not be apparent to someone just driving the Jeep as it sits now.
 

skyote

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Why do you think that?
R1S is better than R1T, but approach & departure angles are a big deal for a lot of rock obstacles. Even the R1S is a far cry from a Bronco or Jeep, but the R1T is better than a Toyota Tacoma, so it's all relative.
 

BillArnett

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In the real estate world the mantra is "location location location". For off-roading it's "Tires Tires Tires". OK, one could always replace the stock all-terrain tires with some mud-terrains but they can't be any bigger: there's no room in the fender wells to put larger ones. And the 20" rims look to be required to clear the brakes so we can't go with smaller ones. This means there's essentially no way to fit tires with taller sidewalls. Which means there's little margin for airing down.

And the reason tires are so important is traction. The Rivian has 700+ horsepower but that doesn't do any good if the tires can't get any grip. And the amount of traction is limited (mostly) by the size of the contact patch between the tires and the ground. That's why airing down is so important, it makes the contact patch bigger. When I switched my Jeep from 35s to 37s it made a HUGE difference in my ability to climb obstacles.

So we're stuck with tires better suited for the highway than the rocks. Rivian seems to be concentrating more on low rolling resistance than traction. This is important for range. But what good is higher range if you can't go where you want after you get there?

OK, despite all that the Rivian will be OK on the easy stuff. But just OK. With the stock tires one will have to be careful not to puncture the sidewalls. And with limited ability to air down the ride on even the easy stuff will be rougher (though Rivian's superior suspension vis a vis a Jeep will help).

If I could change just one thing about the Rivian's design it would be very simple: smaller wheels and bigger tires. At least optionally.
 

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BillArnett

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Skyote is right about the angles, too. Fixing that is the second thing I would fix. And some decent armor under the bumpers and the rockers (the underbelly looks to be OK).
 

bajadahl

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skyote, does this mean we have to choose between on-road range with larger battery packs and off-road traction and versatility with lighter battery packs?
I don't think the difference in weight will be a huge factor... I did some basic math with these 2 assumptions... 21700 cell weighs 70 Grams and has 17.3 wh capacity (this was done with a very quick google search) so the weight and capacity could vary a little. This does not take the extra weight of the module itself into consideration which would add a little more.
by my quick math here is the breakdown:
105 kWh = 7 Modules with 867 21700 batteries each = 936.5 pounds
135 kWh = 9 Modules with 867 21700 batteries each = 1204.1 pounds
180 kWh = 12 Modules with 867 21700 batteries each = 1605.5 pounds
So the total weight difference between the largest and smallest battery pack is 669 pounds plus the weight of the empty modules so call it maybe 750-800 pounds... I'll get the bigger pack and kick my friends out when I want to go off roading....

But I agree that the approach and departure angles are the bigger issue, plus the inability to easily add bigger wheels and suspension... I think the Rivian will do just as well as a stock jeep on these trails.. but have you ever seen the bumpers on a stock jeep after attempting some of these trails.... um no thank you....
 

skyote

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For off-roading it's "Tires Tires Tires".
I would modify this slightly to "traction traction traction". Airing down is extremely important for rock obstacles, mainly so that tires can more easily form to the surface & "grab" more traction. Airing down also helps vehicles not dig as much in soft sand...I've seen people get stuck & fairly easily get out after only airing down the tires.

Now, I think 4 motors with smart, independent control will be a game changer & even better than lockers. Traction should be where the Rivian vehicles shine.
 

BillArnett

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OK, I agree it's "traction". (And the main way to improve that is with better tires.) And I agree the 4 motor design is *potentially* better than lockers. We'll just have to see. But it's "only" software so I expect they will be able to improve it after some real world experience.

It might be, for instance, that a "software locker" would be a help sometimes. By that I mean having the software insure that all 4 wheels turn at the same rate. Or perhaps the same rate but modified by the steering angle. Not a big deal but it's "only software" :)
 

Coast2Coast

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So, in terms of simple things to do, assuming Rivian is watching/listening, Bill's recommendation of smaller wheels and bigger tires (more traction) is the first change to make for better off-roading/adventuring. Numbers 2 & 3?
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