Rivian reiterates longest range model will go over 400 miles on single charge

Discussion in 'Tech: Batteries, Charging, Alternative Energy' started by RefugeEV, Feb 27, 2019.

  1. RefugeEV

    RefugeEV Active Member

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    I along with some members here were concerned when news of the auxiliary battery dropped that it could mean Rivian's claim of 400 miles on a single charge required this battery to be installed.

    Well we can exhale because Rivian just tweeted again today confirming that "We'll have three different battery packs to choose from at launch. Our largest battery pack can go over 400 miles on a single charge"

    :whew:

     
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  2. Ricky35

    Ricky35 Member

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    So we know the most expensive long range model will go over 400 miles, but what about the least expensive model?
     
  3. sdTom

    sdTom Member

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    230+
     
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  4. Electronaut

    Electronaut Active Member

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    Here's the battery capacity and mileage claimed so far:

    180kWh battery = 400 miles range
    135kWh battery = 300 miles range
    105kWh battery = 230 miles range
     
  5. EyeOnRivian

    EyeOnRivian Well-Known Member

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    Electronaut's numbers are for the R1T. If you're interested in the R1S, here's what I've read so far:

    180kWh battery = 410 miles range
    135kWh battery = 310 miles range
    105kWh battery = 240 miles range
     
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  6. Electronaut

    Electronaut Active Member

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  7. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    #7 Hmp10, Mar 8, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
    The claimed EPA ranges of the Rivians will be good for comparison to competing electric vehicles' range claims, but they will not accurately represent the range you'll actually get in real-world driving.

    Rivian is using the 2170 cells and, like almost all other current lithium ion batteries, they cannot be charged to full capacity often without accelerated degradation of the battery. For everyday driving, they should be charged up to only about 85% of full charge, with full charging reserved only for long road trips where you might need every mile of range to get from one charging station to another.

    So, in everyday use, a 400-mile range really translates to about 340 miles of range . . . and that's just for starters.

    Battery ranges are calculated in ideal conditions. For instance, Tesla calculates their highway ranges based on steady-state driving at 65 mph in warm, dry weather on flat roads with no accessories (A/C, stereo, etc.) running and no windows open. Such conditions are rarely encountered for long. (Cars are rated this way because, to increase repeatability, the EPA puts cars on dynamometers instead of testing them on real roads.)

    I sometimes drive my Tesla across Alligator Alley, a flat, straight stretch of interstate highway with light traffic skirting the north edge of the Everglades. Several times I have set the cruise control at 80 mph with the windows up and the A/C running and used roadway mile markers for calculation. I have found that in those conditions I use up 10 miles of indicated range for every 6 miles of actual road travel.

    My car (a Model S P90D) has an EPA-rated range of 257 miles. Starting a trip with an 85% charge and driving 80 mph thus yields a realistic range of 131 miles (257 x .85 x .6) on a road trip in south Florida. The only way I could go further without recharging is to charge up to 100% and/or drive considerably slower (and at 65 mph, I would be mowed down on Florida interstates).

    Another factor missing is that Rivian hasn't yet released any drag coefficients for its vehicles, which is a considerable factor in electric driving range. My Tesla comes in at 0.24, which is one of the lowest of any production vehicle. The combination of the Rivians' more squared off fronts and larger surface areas suggests their total drag will be somewhat higher. While its drag is already accounted for in rated range, that is only at the road speed at which the range is calculated. If you drive faster, a car with a higher drag is going to lose range at a higher rate than a car with lower drag.

    Consider this: the Lucid Air -- a low, sleek sedan -- is claiming a 400-mile range with a 130 kW battery pack and 1,000 total horsepower, while Rivian is claiming the same range with a 180 kW battery pack and 700 horsepower. That's how much difference weight and aerodynamics can make in range.

    All told, Rivians will have very good range for the types of vehicles they are . . . but I doubt if anyone is going to see anything like the advertised ranges unless they're trying really, really hard on just the right road on just the right day.
     
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  8. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    I have been reading up on Tesla's acquisition of Maxwell Technologies to understand it, and it's got me wondering whether Tesla is about to steal a march in energy pack performance on companies such as Rivian and Lucid who are planning to get to market in late 2020 and early 2021.

    Maxwell already has dry electrode coating technology in production which yields about a 21% improvement in energy density over the wet coating technology used to manufacture other batteries -- including the 2170's that Rivian is planning to use.

    Also, Maxwell is a leading manufacturer of ultra capacitors which can be used to capture regenerative braking energy and release energy for acceleration more quickly and efficiently than batteries. Predictions are that adding capacitors to battery packs will extend the range and increase the number of charge cycles of battery packs by as much as double. Tesla is already working on integration of capacitors into its energy packs, and there is now speculation that the acceleration and range figures Tesla is touting for its coming Roadster are derived from this approach, not from greatly increasing the size of the battery pack as initially thought by the press.

    This may be another area where Tesla's early entry into the EV market will redound to its benefit. With many production start-up headaches behind it, Tesla can now put more focus on new energy technologies for EV's while other new entrants still have to slog through production start-up woes.

    Is it possible that just before Rivian, Lucid, Mercedes, and Porsche hit the market in 2020 with their new EV's, Tesla is going to announce a big breakthrough in range that immediately reduces the up-and-comers to second-tier status on that front?

    I am not a fan of Elon Musk as a person or a business leader, but as a technical visionary he is at the forefront of his generation. He almost single-handedly showed a doubting world that EV's could be fast, have good range, and be a blast to drive. I wonder if he's about to teach us something new about energy packs.
     
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  9. Whmorken

    Whmorken Member

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    Thank you for focusing on the immediate future and surprises around the corner with new batteries and capacitors. This gives temporary advantages to one car company but not for long.
     
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  10. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    True. I have a Tesla now and love the power and handling. But Tesla badly mismanages interior space for cars that large, and that's a big problem for me and the aging friends I haul around. So my next EV will be either a Lucid Air or a Rivian R1S (I have deposits on both), regardless of whether Tesla beats them to market with a next-generation energy pack.

    Current battery technology offers me all the range I really need in an EV, but I have to admit I will be a bit cranky if, right after buying my 400-mile-range Lucid or Rivian, Tesla hits the market with 600 miles of range and faster charging and more cyclability.
     
  11. EyeOnRivian

    EyeOnRivian Well-Known Member

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    Lucid Air, sweet looking car, but that's quite the spread of vehicle designs and intended functions compared to an R1S. From the pictures on the Lucid Air website it looks spacious but as a sedan it also looks to have a some-what of a lower profile (height). Sure hope your "aging friends" are still nimble enough to get in and out of it. ;)
     
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  12. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    I do, too. I'm hoping to have a chance to sit in both vehicles before I get the notice to configure either car for order. Other than an invitation I just got for a reception hosted by Rivian at the Javits Center in New York City next month, I have not been able to find either manufacturer listed thus far for the major auto shows down my way this year.

    No matter how comfortable the rear seat of the Rivian will be, the Lucid is likely to beat it on that front -- at least once you're in the seat. I always keep a minivan for the frequent extended family visits (one of the, uh, "features" of living in south Florida), but I actually prefer a low-slung car as a personal driver,.

    I traded an Audi R8 V-10 Spyder for my Tesla and was downright shocked at how much quicker the Tesla felt and how close it came to the handling prowess of the Audi. (You have to find an interstate cloverleaf to find a curve anywhere down here, anyway.) The Lucid is billed as a sport sedan and has the proposed specs to prove it. On the other hand, the Rivian would give me the means to take visitors on the dirt/mud trails that surround the large lake we live on at a nature preserve.

    Damn . . . I might end up deciding I need both.:(
     
  13. ElectricTrucking

    ElectricTrucking Well-Known Member

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  14. CappyJax

    CappyJax Well-Known Member

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    Even if Tesla announced some game changing news, I would still avoid them. They have a reputation of rushing to market new tech without fully testing it and then not having a fix when problems arise. I would rather go with some proven slightly older tech.
     
  15. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    If someone wants an electric vehicle, except for the Chinese BYDe6 (if you can find one), there is no older, more proven technology currently on the market than Tesla's. The Nissan Leaf did go into production two years before Tesla Model S, but the batteries in that first generation experienced accelerated deterioration due to poor temperature management, and Nissan had to re-engineer the packs (which still lack liquid cooling). Toyota briefly produced an RAV4 EV, but it used Tesla technology.

    Anyone buying any of the next-generation EV's, including Rivian, is going to be buying a far less road-proven vehicle than a new Tesla. That won't keep me from buying a Rivian or a Lucid, but it will be with the full expectation that the initial production runs are going to have some problems crop up later.
     
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  16. Aurum

    Aurum Active Member

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    @Hmp10 I think you’re right about this. While it certainly seems like Rivian is planning and testing their vehicles and power trains well, you just can’t compete with billions of on the road miles. When Rivian was just getting started Tesla was already making vehicles. This makes me cautiously optimistic about Rivian, and on the fence of whether to go with Rivian or Tesla model Y. If Tesla introduces some range and or battery improvements/ changes to the model y/ model 3 before they go into production, this could really tip the scales to Tesla for me.
     
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  17. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    Tesla certainly had its hiccups, but they went well beyond what anyone else was attempting at the time in terms of both range and power to the pavement. I think the savvier companies (and I think Rivian is one of them) will study the Tesla missteps and avoid some of them. One of these misstep avoidances already in the plans is not to over-automate the factory, which was a source of a lot of Tesla's headaches and delays.

    The same goes for Lucid Air. Its Chief Engineer was Principal Engineer at Jaquar, Chief Engineer at Lotus, and Chief Engineer at Tesla for the Model S. The smart EV companies will build off not only Tesla's successes and mistakes, but those of older automotive outfits.
     
  18. CappyJax

    CappyJax Well-Known Member

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    Tesla has one of the worst reputations for reliability and serviceability. A lot of miles on a model doesn’t make it road proven if they don’t fix/upgrade the problems. It only proves a lack of testing before entering full production.
     
  19. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

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    I had a 1997 Corvette that was plagued with problems. The driver's side window leaked so badly during a rain that I had to stuff paper towels along the top edge. The brake discs warped twice, having to be turned once and then replaced. The car constantly went into limp mode. The last time it did I was on the inside lane of I-95 against a concrete barrier and thought I was going to get killed trying to get the car off the road. I left it there, walked down an exit, called a tow truck, and never drove it again. It was one year old.

    The next most problem-riddled car I owned was a 2004 Mercedes SL55. Transmission shift lever broke, the seat heaters failed, the trunk gasket leaked, a power window motor went out, and the brake-by-wire system had to be replaced twice. I had that car for four years and dumped it the minute the warranty ran out.

    I drove my 2015 Tesla Model S for three and a half years before it had its first problem, which Tesla fixed under warranty -- admittedly after a few weeks of frustration -- and I still have four more years on the warranty.

    I have spent a lot of time on Tesla owners forums, and the reporting of problems I saw looked pretty much like what one sees on forums for any other brand.

    I assume you're on this board because you are interested in electric vehicles. What "proven slightly older EV tech" are you planning to buy?
     
  20. CappyJax

    CappyJax Well-Known Member

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    Anecdotal experiences are not evidence.
     

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