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Rivian please adopt Tesla charging standard

tesla & rivian same charging style to


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Aurum

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@Hmp10 i saw your post from the other page about the range. I agree there will probably be some factors that will change the actual range in the end (weather and road conditions especially), but I don’t think they have really mentioned specifically EPA estimates, have they? I figured since the vehicles were not yet in production they would not have those ratings. I always assumed the range estimates were specifically from Rivian and RJ made it sound in his interview with Sean Mitchell that these estimates were realistic ranges. They have been testing their skateboard design in real world situations and on real world prototypes. So I figured the ranges they are stating are based on that testing, not just math.
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Hmp10

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You may well be right, and I hope so. I suspect, though, that whatever calculation method they were using, Rivian was calculating from the starting point of a fully-charged battery. I've never seen a calculation that didn't use that as a starting point. Until graphene ball technology or some similar breakthrough makes its way into car batteries to retard the formation of dendrites, most owners will probably want to charge up to only 85-90% for daily use. That means someone with the 180 kW battery will generally start with about 340-360 miles of range.

Tesla claims a Model S range of 335 miles with its 100 kW battery, while Rivian claims 240 miles with its 105 kW battery. The Rivian weighs almost 25% more and produces significantly more horsepower and torque than the Tesla. While drag co-efficients are not available for Rivian, the total drag (co-efficient x surface area) is likely to be significantly higher than the Tesla.

Tesla is notoriously optimistic in its range claims. So the question becomes how much of the claimed range difference between Tesla and Rivian is a result of the differences in weight and aerodynamic drag, and how much is the result of differences in testing assumptions and calculations.

Since Rivian is claiming about 40% less range for a slightly-larger battery pack -- which seems like more than could be accounted for by weight and aerodynamics differences -- it may be that Rivian's claim more accurately tracks real-world driving conditions than Tesla's. If so, that will be great.
 

RefugeEV

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And this is just Phase I (to be completed late this year) of what are going to be four phases by 2024.

I wonder how long it will be before gas stations start installing charging stations. If I were an oil company that owned a lot of gas stations or just a station owner, I'd be worried. (Saudi Arabia is already anticipating the end of its oil hegemony and through its sovereign wealth fund is investing heavily in electric vehicle development to keep the cash flowing their way.) And gas stations are ideally-suited as charging sites. They are at almost every interstate exit and usually sell food so people can snack while waiting for their cars to charge.
Agreed. But until charging times drop drastically, can you imagine the queues at gas stations for charging stations.

Interesting you brought up Saudi Arabia as one of their biggest initial angel investors (Abdul Latif Jameel Ltd.) was a Saudi automotive conglomerate -
 

Hmp10

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I can imagine the queues. In fact, I've already encountered them at the Tesla charging station in Plantation (a suburb of Miami) when I drive over to the east coast. I hear it's already a common problem at many California stations, too.

There will be many issues that arise as we near the inflection point of masses of people abandoning ICE cars for EV's. Many utilities in the U.S. are transitioning to more wind and solar generation, and the likes of GE and Siemens are in financial stress because of the drop in commercial generator sales. My own electric utility in Florida is expanding its solar farms at the second highest rate in the nation. They shut down their last coal-fired plant last year and are closing a couple of oil-fired plants this year. They expect to generate 40% of their power with solar by 2030, with the rest coming from nuclear and natural gas.

As people start using electricity to propel cars, though, the need for electric power generation will start to soar and may force a return to more fossil fuel generation to cover the demand. I used to work at General Electric. In the 1990's, they calculated that every 1,000 laptops sold in the U.S. resulted in the sale of one additional commercial generator. Imagine what that number becomes when we're talking cars instead of laptops.

You are right about charging times being a key issue beyond just the presence of charging stations. Once charge times start to approximate times to refill gas tanks, the trickle of EV's onto the road will become a torrent. Those entrepreneurs who are positioned to answer that demand when it arrives are going to make killings.
 

Katsudon

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I can imagine the queues. In fact, I've already encountered them at the Tesla charging station in Plantation (a suburb of Miami) when I drive over to the east coast. I hear it's already a common problem at many California stations, too.
Yup. I already regularly encounter queues of 5-10 cars waiting their turn at Tesla supercharging stations around here. Hopefully with Electrify America's rapid expansion, we won't be seeing these kind of waits in our Rivians.

You are right about charging times being a key issue beyond just the presence of charging stations. Once charge times start to approximate times to refill gas tanks, the trickle of EV's onto the road will become a torrent.
Any guesses as to when we'll see parity being achieved between charging stations and gas stations in terms of "fill up" time (i.e. 3-5 min charging for 300-400 miles range)?
 

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Hmp10

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The fastest charging time I've seen anyone promise any time soon is Lucid Air at 20 miles per minute with a 350 kW charger. Whether they'll actually deliver this, though, is another matter. They say their cars will tolerate fast charging with less battery degradation using a new type of battery, but they're not giving any specifics. They're teaming with Samsung on batteries, and Samsung supposedly has a graphene ball battery ready for small applications (such as cell phones). Graphene balls retard the formation of dendrites, allowing batteries to charge faster with less degradation, so maybe Lucid is teasing the prospect that Samsung will have a graphene ball battery for automotive applications by late 2020. Lots of maybes here, though.

Super capacitors can take charges almost instantly. In fact, some city buses in China are powered by such capacitors. However, they can only go a few blocks on a charge. They charge for 20 seconds every other stop or so.

There's a lot of speculation about what technology will finally offer truly fast charging -- some as-yet-uninvented type of super capacitor that has good range, some altogether new battery chemistry, some type of solid state battery, or some combination of the foregoing.

Tesla is already experimenting with augmenting their battery packs with capacitors, presumably for two reasons: capacitors are much better at capturing regenerative braking energy than batteries, and using that stored energy to augment acceleration would reduce the drain on the main battery pack.
 
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Krell

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Highlights from the Electrify America site. Charging at $.30-$.35 per minute @ 350 kwh. Each minute adds about 9 miles and the charge time will be about 30 minutes.
Tesla's supercharging rates right now are $0.13 per minute under 60 kW and $0.26 per minute over 60 kW (where they charge by minute - not all stations do), and there is no $1 per session charge like Electrify America. I agree competition is good, and the more chargers, the merrier - but I'll stick with Tesla as long as its rates are competitive. And, with supercharger v3.0 on the way, I'm excited about the future.

I would have been happy if Rivian had licensed the Tesla supercharger technology, since I am a Tesla owner. However, it's clear they went with CCS and they're not going to reverse that. Hopefully there will be a Tesla-CCS adapter that the Rivian can use so I can use my Tesla wall connector to charge the Rivian.
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