Featured LIVE from Rivian's NY Auto Show Preview Event! (Q&A and R1T / R1S Hands-On)

Discussion in 'Rivian General Discussions' started by Administrator, Apr 12, 2019.

  1. DocTwinkie

    DocTwinkie Active Member

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    #21 DocTwinkie, Apr 14, 2019 at 9:06 AM
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019 at 9:20 AM
    I enjoyed the event and having an excuse to fly to New York for a few nights. That said I still think they’ve priced themselves out of the market. Model Xs aren’t moving in volume. These are nice cars. 100k nice (which is what I’m guessing they are spec’d as shown)... not for me.

    I have a feeling the 69k base is going to be like the 35k model 3. Not available for years if at all. To they extreme few who have that much disposable income have fun.

    When they first were developing under the radar I think they had Tesla’s business plan in mind. Come out with extreme priced cars with a very elite, exclusive, feel. Impress investors and people who can’t afford it with something amazing but ultimately out of most price ranges. Plan on losing money until you can bring lower cost high volume car to market.

    Tesla did this and is still barely alive. But Rivian seems to realize the market has changed. Tesla is hanging on by threads, competition is everywhere. They seem to be using these cars to showcase their tech to buyers more than they are showcasing the cars to buyers. Amazon I’m sure wants the electric tech and self driving tech more than they think this will be a high volume profitable sustainable consumer car company. That’s smart of them since I don’t see that happening. Rivian I think knows it needs to get gobbled up by someone. And that’s makes this too risky for me to drop 100k on.

    I’ll leave my preorder in. Who knows. Maybe ford or someone will pick them up and with the new partner they’ll be able to price drop.
     
  2. VinsRiv

    VinsRiv Member

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    Did anyone find out about how many preorders were placed,would be a good indication how the company is doing for production & the hopes that Rivian would likely take off
     
  3. DocTwinkie

    DocTwinkie Active Member

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    I highly doubt they would release that info.
     
  4. stank65

    stank65 Member

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    Tesla has made an absolute ton of mistakes to put themselves in the financial position they are in today. Rivian appears to have learned from many of these from the start. Three of the biggest are that they are not planning on reinventing the way cars are made -- instead they purchased an old Mitsubishi plant for pennies on the dollar. Tesla tried to build too many perfect mousetraps simultaneously and have paid the price. Second, they found a partner with deep pockets that isn't just an investor, but will also directly benefit from the evolution of the technology. Third, they are starting with vehicles that can command higher price points in the market naturally, and a same vehicle also recognize the largest savings from EV vs ICE.
     
  5. DocTwinkie

    DocTwinkie Active Member

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    I really hope they succeed and I think they are being very smart looking to sell not just white cars but also their tech. They’ve also leaned like you said from some of Tesla’s mistake. That said I still can’t see a large market for these cars at these prices so it’s certainly good they’re looking at other ways to generate revenue.

    But for the car consumer I think they’ve priced themselves into the most niche of markets.
     
  6. stank65

    stank65 Member

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    So from personal experience, I think the market will start to learn how much less expensive it is to operate an EV. I know everyone gives Tesla crap for talking about "savings", but it is real. We bought a model 3 and have effectively eliminated about $200 in energy costs a month (charging solely at home). When I subtract that off my payment, the payment is at or below the price of the equivalent ICE car I would be driving. The energy savings for a large SUV will be even more dramatic -- we plan on replacing our Tahoe with an R1S. Contractors who can plug in on site suddenly see their fuel costs disappear (and they can still expense mileage).

    If they use the same skateboard for multiple different vehicles as they have stated, I could see them doing very very well and keeping their costs lower than expected.

    When Amazon starts buying delivery trucks from them, they aren't going to care about the up front cost -- all of focus will be on the operational cost savings which will vastly outweigh any increasing in the initial cost. Basically, if they are able to produce the vehicles at scale they should have no problem with demand.
     
  7. DocTwinkie

    DocTwinkie Active Member

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    Sure. Fleet sales I can see looking at operational savings. That said a fleet purchase won’t want leather, wood, lcd’s, self driving, etc. a fleet purchaser will want two pedals, one chair, a steering wheel, and cargo capacity. That’s it. They’ve made no hint such a car will be available to consumers any time soon or to independent workers. That’s years away.

    That’s a whole other car.

    And as for the average blue collar worker... can’t afford it. No fuel savings or mileage is gonna push a construction worker to a 100k truck when they can get a brand new one that will do the job for 30s. A working truck is gonna get beat up. No one is going to abuse these things. At these prices these are to be babied by all but the most elite who could afford to just replace it when they break it.

    Anyone buying this has enough money that honestly fuel savings are moot.
     
  8. stank65

    stank65 Member

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    Its not a whole other car. They are going to use the same skateboard for multiple vehicles (again a lesson learned from Tesla that Tesla leaned the hard way). The difference for Rivian is that their skateboard is already the size to create these type of vehicles where the Model 3 chassis is not. Fleet sales should allow them to reach economies of scale on their skateboard that are realized by all vehicles in the line. Economy of scale on the skateboard is what matters. When they hit economies of scale we are not talking anywhere close to 100K vehicle. You can put an SUV, an Extended cab pickup, a regular cab pickup, a sprinter van style vehicle, a raptor style vehicle, and a full fledged delivery truck all on that same skateboard.

    I know a ton of contractors that drive around in 60k and 70k pickups. Rivian doesn't have to replace all f-150 sales to be wildly successful. Every other car in line for school is a pimped out Tahoe, Suburban, Range Rover, M5, etc, and many people who purchase these trucks get major tax write-offs on them. They don't have to go after the 35K f-150s for a decade.
     
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  9. Lil'O Annie

    Lil'O Annie Active Member

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    A big THANK YOU to those posting info/videos/pics from the show for the rest of us to see!!! :clap:
    From what I see in the photos, it doesn't look like the rear window in the pickup opens...does it? Does the rear window in the SUV open?
     
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  10. VValleyEV

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    Great photos. Can’t tell, do the rear seats of the R1T fold down, or just the R1S? I would like to occasionally carry gear in the back seat area, wonder what my options are that will leave the seats protected somwhat.
     
  11. DocTwinkie

    DocTwinkie Active Member

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    #31 DocTwinkie, Apr 15, 2019 at 10:17 PM
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019 at 10:28 PM
    I’m just being a Debbie downer. It’s a great platform. I’m sure they have a plan. Fleet sales are definitely the ideal.

    I think I saw this based on their LA auto showing as more a general consumer truck/off road competitor but I’m thinking this is more the Range Rover and Mercedes G competitor at least initially.

    I certainly wish them the best and in the event they have a model that meets my needs and my budget and also have a reasonable service infrastructure and backing that makes me confident they will be around I’ll be getting one. My preorder isn’t cancelled though I’m carefully watching my options.
     
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  12. EyeOnRivian

    EyeOnRivian Active Member

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    Ditto ... on the thank you to all (!!) and about the windows opening. In addition, did anybody happen to find out if the third row seats will be optional on the R1S 105 kW and 130 kW models?
     
  13. godfodder0901

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    The rear windows do not open as of yet, but the R1S does have a split rear (i.e. the top half opens up, and the bottom half opens down). As far as the rear seats being optional on the R1S, RJ told me personally that the rear seat delete will be an option in all but the 180Kwh config (where the rear seat delete is standard).
     
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  14. ElectricTrucking

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    I would hope that the rear seats of the R1T will fold down and believe they will. Not a big issue to do that. I believe they will fold up except for the 180 KWH version because of space needed for the largest battery pack. As you I like the idea of protecting the seats as I really won't use the rears much. I sold my second car in anticipation of the R1T and don't miss it. I'm relying on my 911 frunk for my needs. That pretty much says where I'm coming from. My want is a Tesla S soon to be refrshed next to my RiT. Pure want not a need. I walk more than I drive but that is beside the point.
     
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  15. godfodder0901

    godfodder0901 Member

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    I don't think that the battery pack has any impact on the interior of the R1T since it has a longer wheelbase than the R1S.
     
  16. DocTwinkie

    DocTwinkie Active Member

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    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/com...-gm-with-plans-to-build-for-others/ar-BBW2N4k

    Thought you'd like this. RJ coming out that they have plans to build non-consumer models for companies. Likely why they shunned GM. This is excellent news for those like myself concerned that cars this expensive won't move in volume. Fleet sales would absolutely be a major revenue generator that would support he company and the plant in volumes that the current price points of their consumer cars could not.

    Great news and really changes the whole plan when it comes to the sustainability of the company. Really glad RJ put this info out. There was a big gap in their business plan that made me worried. I have the cash to buy one of these but I don't have the means to juts waste 100k on a gamble. It would be a big investment and for myself and my family what they had announced (two cars at that price) didn't seem like a responsible purchase given my concerns they couldn't sustain a company with that niche market. Now that they've really expanded their market and we see why Amazon invested and why the GM deal went south that's really great news for those looking to buy these cars.

    RJ said they had tens of thousands of pre-orders. This is in line with what Tesla saw for the Model X but tiny in comparison to the model 3 (hundreds of thousands) again showing that these high priced models just don't move in volumes. A plan for fleet vehicles however totally changes that ballgame.
     
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  17. Alan Burns

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    We will need to watch what UPS works out to buy a bare skateboard then finish it off with their own box bodies and driver controls. They can likely get by with the low capacity batteries for most of their daily delivery vans. Final assembly could be handled away from Normal, Il at a slower pace with experienced assembly people.
     
  18. stank65

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    Thanks for posting this. This is more proof IMO that they have learned many of the lesson that others have not. The skateboard is what they are ultimately selling. The high end SUV and Pickup market is the proof of concept that they will make a name for themselves. The math on fleet vehicles is so different than the general consumer market as far as the price they can command (you obviously know this I’m just restating). Imagine running a fleet of delivery vehicles that cost you 1/4 the fuel costs and significantly lower maintenance cost and you get to use it as a marketing tool. Companies would drop 100k in a heartbeat on a vehicle that could do that.
     
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  19. DocTwinkie

    DocTwinkie Active Member

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    The more fleshed our business plan has definitely renewed my enthusiasm.
     
  20. paariv

    paariv New Member

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    RJ just gave an interview where he claimed they had "tens of thousands" of preorders. Higher than I'd have guessed, but it would be great for the company if true.
     

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