Inside Electrify America’s plan to simplify electric car charging

Discussion in 'Tech: Batteries, Charging, Alternative Energy' started by EyeOnRivian, May 6, 2019.

  1. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

    Vehicles:
    2015 Tesla Model S P90D; 2018 Honda Odyssey
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2019
    Location:
    Naples, FL
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    234
    After over four years of driving my Tesla, I know that getting even close to the claimed range would require serious hypermiling efforts that would be a great annoyance both to me and other drivers. I bought my car for performance and the driving dynamics of an electric drivetrain. I don't intend to hypermile in the Rivian, either, so I have to assume the claimed range is not what I will attain in everyday driving. If someone is buying a Rivian thinking that they will actually see the advertised range, I wish them patience, perfect weather, and all the luck in the world. I hope I am wrong, but I suspect I am not.
     
    azjohnny likes this.
  2. ajdelange

    ajdelange Well-Known Member

    First Name:
    A. J.
    Vehicles:
    Tesla X 100D 2018
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Location:
    Virginia/Quebec
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    54
    Serious hypermiling is not required in order to get EPA and better than EPA performance in a Tesla. At least not in my experience. I don't drive 20 under the limit (usually 5 - 10 over), I don't take my foot off the accelerator half a mile from an upcoming traffic light or stop sign. But I don't shut down every muscle car I see or floor it out of every traffic light and then slam on the friction brakes a block later at the next light. I do not carry my anvil collection around with me nor drive 20 over the limit. I do not have 22" wheels.

    I think the message for people to take away here is that factors besides the design of the vehicle can have a profound effect on the performance. Someone in Alaska can expect to do worse than someone in North Carolina. Those who drive like teenagers can expect to do worse than those who "hypermile". Those who drive normally in temperate weather on relatively even terrain can expect to get about what the EPA numbers suggest. And that is exactly what the EPA rating is intended to convey. If you drive way over the limit and spend a lot if time on the freeway then expect to get less than the EPA range. If you drive a lot in a town with heavy traffic (bumper to bumper) and if most of your trips are short and at low speed, do not expect to get EPA mileage. If you engage in drag racing at every traffic light do not expect to get EPA mileage. If you have larger wheels than those on the car tested for EPA rating do not expect to get EPA mileage. But if you drive "normally" you can expect to get EPA milage in the warmer months.

    I am buying a Rivian expecting to get the advertised range or close to it. I don't expect that any more patience or good luck will be needed for me to achieve that with the Rivian than with the Tesla. A large part of the art of owning a BEV is figuring out how external factors and driving habits will effect range - really power consumption so that you can plan effectively (in the early stages of ownership where planning is necessary). Tesla gives you a good set of tools for doing this especially when coupled with third party apps that exploit the API. I certainly think Rivian will do the same (have they said anything about an API?) but along this line was thinking how nice it would be if Rivian put a draft owner's manual on line so we could get a tentative idea of what the displays and controls are like,

    I think the other big takeaway is that the Rivians are in no sense practical vehicles. They are big expensive toys for boys who like to go offroading or camping in the wilderness. As such we shouldn't really expect them to fit into the current charging infrastructure which was not developed for vehicles like them.
     
  3. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

    Vehicles:
    2015 Tesla Model S P90D; 2018 Honda Odyssey
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2019
    Location:
    Naples, FL
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    234
    I hope you're right. Time will tell.
     
  4. ajdelange

    ajdelange Well-Known Member

    First Name:
    A. J.
    Vehicles:
    Tesla X 100D 2018
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Location:
    Virginia/Quebec
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    54
    Well yes but you are tooling around in your Telsa at 60% efficiency and enjoying it. Why wouldn't you enjoy the Rivian at the same level of performance? You are clearly not relying on your Social Security checks to buy these things so who cares about a few extra kWh at $0.14?

    Also keep in mind that we've pretty much figured out that we don't need more than 250 - 300 miles range. If Rivian's 400 mile claim turns out to be 300 the more serious implication, to my way of thinking, is that their consumption is not 180000/400 = 450 Wh/mi but 180000/300 = 600 Wh/mi implying that the 40 A level 2 charger I am likely to install in my garage is going to give me 16 mi per hour of charging rather than 21.33.
     
  5. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

    Vehicles:
    2015 Tesla Model S P90D; 2018 Honda Odyssey
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2019
    Location:
    Naples, FL
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    234
    I put my deposit down on a R1S assuming it would fall considerably short of the advertised range. Just how close it will come to attaining 400 miles is more a question of what trips I would do in it, not whether or not I would buy it.

    I also have a deposit down on a Lucid Air. As I've posted elsewhere, the big shortcoming of the Tesla for my purposes is the cramped back seat for my older set of friends. I'm looking for a solution to that problem first and foremost, and both the Rivian and the Lucid Air seem to have an answer with otherwise utterly different vehicles.

    Even though I enjoy acceleration more than top-end speed and the Lucid would be quicker, the 3.2 seconds to 60 of the Rivian would be just fine. Which one I finally buy will come down to (1) who gets to market first, and (2) what the sales and service model is. Lucid has already announced an agreement with Electrify America, which doesn't exactly thrill me -- mostly because I hate to put money in the pocket of a company such as VW of diesel scam fame. But, then again, the great bulk of my driving will be done with home charging.
     
  6. ajdelange

    ajdelange Well-Known Member

    First Name:
    A. J.
    Vehicles:
    Tesla X 100D 2018
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Location:
    Virginia/Quebec
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    54
    So if you bought the Lucid you would punish EA for bad behaviour on the part of its parent company (VW) at some time in the past by denying yourself free charging? That logic is pretty common these days but totally incomprehensible to me. Placido Domingo pinched some prima donna's bottom 20 years ago and I should punish him by denying myself the pleasure of listening to his singing? If you can explain that reasoning to me I'd be most appreciative (even though it is way off topic).
     
  7. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

    Vehicles:
    2015 Tesla Model S P90D; 2018 Honda Odyssey
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2019
    Location:
    Naples, FL
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    234
    Uh, exactly where in my post did I say I would not use an EA charger? I said only that I wasn't thrilled with giving VW money.

    As I posted earlier, I do most of my charging at home because of my driving routine even though I have free lifetime charging with Tesla, and would continue to do so no matter which vehicle I purchased.
     
  8. BlindPass

    BlindPass New Member

    Vehicles:
    Insight
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2019
    Location:
    Florida
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    5
    Likewise, and I believe research suggests they’ve found that to be true for most.

    It was asked to you what’s the few extra kWh at $0.14? Nothing, but the time is valuable.


    You mentioned this, but the conservative driving behind then EPA numbers has a bigger cost to the BEVs with today’s infrastructure (or lack thereof) than it does for ICE cars. Consistently getting off a few exits earlier than anticipated in a ICE doesn’t lead to the same frustration or headaches as with an EV. It reminds me of when driving out in the wilderness areas of Montana, Idaho, and Alaska in my youth (prior to cell phones) in which significant consideration was given to fueling logistics. As an EV fan I try to dismiss it as being similar to how I’ve come to accept the need to optimize my charging opportunities for my smartphone and do not miss the flip-phone, but admittedly it’s a hindrance and we use ICE for road trips.
     
    Hmp10 likes this.
  9. ajdelange

    ajdelange Well-Known Member

    First Name:
    A. J.
    Vehicles:
    Tesla X 100D 2018
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Location:
    Virginia/Quebec
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    54
    My charging pattern is, in this regard, AFAIK, typical with the large majority of it done at home. In terms of kWh added to the battery:

    Home 86.6%
    Tesla Destination 1.2%
    Tesla SC 8.6%
    CHAdeMO 3.6%

    So even if I had to pay EA's outrageous rates the energy costs for longer trips would be small compared to the depreciation on the vehicle. This is really a problem for Rivian, not me. If a customer has to be told that in taking a Rivian on a road trip he will spend more on electricity than he would on gas that won't sit well. That's why I am so sure there will be some sort of subsidy for buyers, at least initially.

    Having to plan a bit is not, IMO, a hindrance. I see it as a challenge and thus my attitude towards the whole process is different than some others. I think people like me will find the Rivian more fun than those folks. Studies have shown that prospective buyers are scared away about the sort of anxiety that the previous post generates and they have also shown that once a driver starts using a BEV that anxiety dissipates. But understand that in taking delivery of a Rivian you will be a first adopter. You have to expect that there are going to be some bumps along the road. If those are so unappealing that you think you will use your ICE vehicle more than the Rivian, don't buy the Rivian.
     
  10. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

    Vehicles:
    2015 Tesla Model S P90D; 2018 Honda Odyssey
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2019
    Location:
    Naples, FL
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    234
    #70 Hmp10, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
    It doesn't necessarily follow that one ought not to buy a Rivian if one has trepidation about highway charging.

    Many people simultaneously own varying combinations of ICE vehicles for various purposes: 2-seater sports cars, sedans, SUV's or minivans, pickups.

    These days I keep an EV for the fun of driving it locally -- which is the vast bulk of my driving -- and a minivan for road trips or hauling a group of friends. It's not really different in principle from the days when I owned Mercedes SL's or Audi R8's for fun driving but kept Lexus RX's for other purposes.

    If a Rivian is going to be an only vehicle for someone, the cost of charging it somewhere as expensive as an EA station would probably become a significant factor in only two circumstances: (1) where a home charger cannot be installed, or (2) if someone has an abnormally high ratio of long-distance to local driving.

    Somehow, though, I doubt if many people are going to buy a Rivian as their only vehicle until it develops a solid track record of long-term reliability and ease of ownership.

    I agree that it would behoove Rivian (and Lucid) to strike deals with EA for subsidized charging, though. When word gets around about EA rates it's going to engender a lot of outrage and provide bragging rights to the anti-EV crowd about a hoax of lower operating costs.

    VW is building the EA network under the terms of an agreement whereby the U.S. government would not prosecute them for the diesel emissions scandal. It's absurd that limits were not imposed by that deal on the electricity upcharge that EA could impose. (I worked at GE Aircraft Engines, Power Systems, and Global Consumer Finance over the years. The shady business practices in international deals, including bribes and money laundering, in which German companies routinely engaged and against which we had to compete within the constraints of U.S. law, were notorious.)
     
    Mjhirsch78 and BlindPass like this.
  11. ajdelange

    ajdelange Well-Known Member

    First Name:
    A. J.
    Vehicles:
    Tesla X 100D 2018
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Location:
    Virginia/Quebec
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    54
    I keep forgetting to mention that when using ABRP to investigate Rivian trips I noticed that in several places it advocated charging to near 100% even when predicting arrival SoC at the next charger of 40%. Under similar circumstances for a Tesla it would recommend charging to 70% giving arrival SoC of 10%. This is done because Telsas charge faster at low SoC than at higher. This implies that perhaps Rivian does not taper charge at higher SoC or does not taper it so dramatically. Of course it may also merely reflect that ABRP's models of the Rivians are alpha, as they readily admit. Does anyone have any insight into this?
     
  12. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

    Vehicles:
    2015 Tesla Model S P90D; 2018 Honda Odyssey
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2019
    Location:
    Naples, FL
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    234
    The new Raven version of Teslas have an increased charge rate because the accumulation of data suggests that battery degradation from rapid charging is not as significant as it was predicted to be. Lucid Air is also teasing faster charge rates, along with new battery technology. (Does this mean that they expect to be using Samsung graphene ball batteries by late 2020?) Perhaps Rivian is just going to push charge rates of 2170 batteries a bit higher in light of Tesla's experience?

    When I built my new house I installed two EV charging lines in the garage: a 50-amp line for the Tesla and a 100-amp line to accommodate faster-charging EVs when they arrive. I hope this will help with home charging time for the 180 kWh pack.
     
  13. ajdelange

    ajdelange Well-Known Member

    First Name:
    A. J.
    Vehicles:
    Tesla X 100D 2018
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Location:
    Virginia/Quebec
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    54
    #73 ajdelange, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
    Have you found CCS home charger that will do more than 40 A?

    Do you think Rivian will produce its own version of the HPWC?

    [EDIT] The first question is somewhat mooted by the fact that the Rivian will only accept 50A at 240. Of course there are other manufacturers out there.
     
  14. Hmp10

    Hmp10 Well-Known Member

    Vehicles:
    2015 Tesla Model S P90D; 2018 Honda Odyssey
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2019
    Location:
    Naples, FL
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    234
    So far I haven't needed to look. My Tesla only draws 32 amps when charging. At the time I bought it, there was an (expensive) option to double the charge capacity but, as I could refill a depleted battery overnight at 32 amps, I didn't bother with it.

    Since I won't know until later next year whether I'm going forward with a Rivian or a Lucid, I'll start figuring out then what home charging equipment is available. At least I probably have the capacity in place to handle most home charging options for the next few years.
     
  15. EyeOnRivian

    EyeOnRivian Well-Known Member

    Vehicles:
    Mitsubishi Endeavor, pre-ordered R1S but may change to R1T
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    166
    #75 EyeOnRivian, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
    I believe these support CCS ...
    • JuiceBox Pro 75 - 75A / 18 kW
    • WattZilla's UNO and WaltZilla - both 80 amp. WattZilla carries many others that exceed 40 amps.
    • Clipper Creek has multiple EVSEs in the range of 40 - 80A (9.6 - 19.2kW+).
    • Etc.
     
    Hmp10 likes this.

Share This Page