Living Off Grid

Agree. He's always been a clumsy spokesman, and that performance was one of his worst.

Since Cybertruck won't be offered for 2 years, there's more time to increase efficiencies on the panels. Toyota's already experimenting with panels in the mid-30 percentage range.
Switching topics, now that $69K has been set for Elon's 500-mile tri-motor version, let's hope Rivian reconsiders their price for the 400 mile version (around $90k). The gauntlet has been thrown down, so to speak!
I'm still on the fence regarding my Rivian pre-order. The only thing in my favor is its release in a year. But I hate the hodge-podge charging network it's tied to.

I'm sorry to have to be such a persistent wet blanket but the SQ limit is 33%. There are some workarounds but they are very expensive (involve multiple layers) and won't in the foreseeable future be found in consumer products. Remember that in No. 9 we got respectively 5 and 3 miles added range in summer and winter if we supposed Elon doubled the efficiency of the charging system. All put into the solar cells that would imply efficiency of about 46% for them. As noted in No. 13 the extra couple of kWh supplied by a toneau solar array might be useful. Were it offered as an option I might even buy it but more for the "cool" factor than for the utility I'd expect from it.

Since you've got me looking at numbers note that the 3 miles per day in winter depends on the cooperation of mother nature. This November she has, so far, been most uncooperative. The NREL data tells me I should expect an average of 3.60 kWh•m^-2•da^-1 insolation in my area (northern Virginia). So far this month she has delivered only 2.16 which is 60% of nominal. If you were trying to charge your Rivian as hypothesized this November in No. VA you would only be getting an average of 1.8 miles per day with double the current cell efficiency.

As to the competition between Cyber and R1x: RJ has the pole position WRT to being way ahead of Elon but yes, the Tesla charging network gives Elon a tremendous advantage. As the story (EA etc.) unfolds it appears the only way for RJ to neutralize that advantage is to join the Tesla network.

Someone (more internet savvy than I) please start on-line petition for Rivian pre-order holders asking, no, begging for the dual-port charging option.

No lets not start trying to pressure Rivian to do anything. Careful what you wish for as is often said. Rivian is going to produce a fine vehicle without everyone's special wishes.

I'm absolutely sure that Rivian is fully aware of the status of the EA and other networks and fully aware of the advantages that being a part of the Tesla network would convey to the point that they have explored taking Musk up on his offer. I don't think they need any pushing from us as I think they are well aware of how cognizant EV drivers feel on this matter. They are also aware, as is Elon, that the SC network is the jewel in the crown and that Elon holds all the cards. I don't think that we will ever see Rivians charging at SC sites but it is a thing to be devoutly wished.

binny said:

I've asked Rivian to consider this option. But I was beaten down by other members here, insisting it couldn't be done (because it would require too many panels and would be too heavy, too large to be practical). Step aside, Elon Musk has entered the room:
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-cybertruck-daily-range-boosts-solar-panels/

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Just read the post that the link takes you to. My take; these are third party speculations not Tesla announced capabilities. As a solar "fanboy" and user, I can say with some certainty that today, and in the near future there are no mobile panel solutions that can provide range extension to a highway capable EV. It is a "holy grail" to be sought after; somewhat like perpetual motion and free electrical power.

Good cells are now about 24% efficient. The Shockley-Queisser limit is 33%. Solar insolation is about 1 kW/m^2 at noon at the summer solstice and in non desert mid latitudes one can expect an 4 - 5 hours equivalent 1 kW/m^2 sun averaged over a year. A Rivian or Cybertruck or SUV is going to require about 0.5 kWh per mile driven and so it is a simple matter to compute the square meters of panel one would need to obtain a given range addition. Do this and you will conclude that there are no practical solutions at this time. Less practical solutions, such as going off into the wilderness with the bed of the truck loaded with say a dozen 300W panels which you set up at your destination, do exist however. Twelve panels would give you 3 kW and add 6 miles of range per hour of full sunshine. That amounts to about 27 miles per day. For a week of camping that would put 189 mi into a Rivian or Tesla truck - as long as Frau Sonne is being cooperative.

Charging Networks - Becoming less of a Differentiator in Favor of Tesla
I have 146,000 miles on my EV; two west to east coast locations and back and several Washington to California jaunts included. The Tesla Supercharger network has proven that EVs can be used for family vacations as well as business travel. As of 2019 my experience is that several EVSE network operators are moving into the commercial provision of L3 charging opportunities. Electrify America (penalty operation for VW fraud) over a 10-year period ending in 2027, will invest $2 billion in EV infrastructure. Others not so well funded like ChargePoint and EVgo are also spending investor raised money to develop the L3 charging environment. These third party providers will sell their "fast charging" services much like gas stations; but, the point is there will be L3 in CHAdeMO and CCS connectors all across America. Tesla builds the cost of their network into the price of each vehicle; reportedly around $2,000. (not verified, I was told this by a Tesla employee in 2013) however, new Tesla purchasers do not get unlimited free use of the network. Other networks will attempt to earn a profit on selling their "service" which is the ability to onboard electrical power quickly so the driver can continue their trip..

JackA said:

Charging Networks - Becoming less of a Differentiator in Favor of Tesla
I have 146,000 miles on my EV; two west to east coast locations and back and several Washington to California jaunts included. The Tesla Supercharger network has proven that EVs can be used for family vacations as well as business travel. As of 2019 my experience is that several EVSE network operators are moving into the commercial provision of L3 charging opportunities.

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This probably really belongs in the Rivian vs. Cybertruck thread.

One can, in fact, go off the SC network and do just fine. At least that was my experience with CircuitElectrique. But they are different from EA and EVGo in that they maintain their equipment (I believe they are part of HydroQuebec) - IOW if you plan to use a Circuit Electric charger you will very likely find it working. Compare this to the reports on PlugShare for the other systems out there. We hope, of course, that eventually EA will get the glitches ironed out and their ilities will improve.

As I always do when this comes up I encourage people to explore trips they make or are likely to make with ABRP which now includes Rivian models to see what the implications of travel without the SC network implies. It is a little scary for Tesla owners but we are spoiled. It is quite possible to make any long trip I have done in a Tesla with a Rivian. There may be a penalty in charging time but that should lessen as the EA network opens more stations and their reliability improves.

Also, as I always do when this comes up, i ask readers to keep in mind that 80% of charging is done at home where the nature of charging networks doesn't matter. Thus the range anxiety/charging network angst is a little silly IMO. But it's still at the top of the list of peoples' concerns, probably stimulated somewhat by the anti-EV consortium, and will doubtless stay there for a while.

JackA said:

Tesla builds the cost of their network into the price of each vehicle; reportedly around $2,000. (not verified, I was told this by a Tesla employee in 2013) however, new Tesla purchasers do not get unlimited free use of the network.

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Buyers of Models X and S still do but this comes and goes. Tesla, while it charges other users (including S and X buyers who did not fall into one of the free charging windows) still, supposedly, does not make a profit on the SC network.

JackA said:

Other networks will attempt to earn a profit on selling their "service" which is the ability to onboard electrical power quickly so the driver can continue their trip..

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To make a profit they must charge more than Tesla does and they do. Worry about the loss of the SC network bothers every Rivian reservation holder on this site and I'm sure RJ is well aware of that. This is why I'm guessing that Rivian will offer, as other manufacturers have done, free or at least heavily subsidized charging to its early customers for some period of time.

ajdelange said:

A single panel produces about a quarter of a kW in full sunshine and as summer (winter) full sunshine is 5 (3) hour-equivalents per day we are talking about 1.25 (0.75) kWh available for vampire drain etc.

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The best use of solar on a car is ventilation in the hot summer sun.

In coming years, we should have flexible perovskite solar cells that will be lighter than silicon panels & could possibly be rolled up for easier transport. Roll them out on or around the vehicle & plug them in...

One of he vaporware electric SUV companies (sorry, I can't remember which one nor find it) offers a solar roof. They, rather realistically I think, promise up to 1000 miles added range per year (2.7 mi/da). It was sunny yesterday here in Virginia. I got 1.8 miles per panel.

Whether perovskite makes it or not and when remains to be seen. At this time it degrades fast, is less efficient that current cells and is toxic. But there is lots of excitement about it.

ajdelange said:

Whether perovskite makes it or not and when remains to be seen. At this time it degrades fast, is less efficient that current cells and is toxic. But there is lots of excitement about it.

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There are a number of recent advances in both efficiency & stability. A very recent discovery is that imperfections actually improved efficiency & will even further reduce manufacturing cost.

The real advantage of perovskites is manufacturing/cost, and no need for clean rooms for the silicon. Cost reduction will more than offset potential duty/lifespan length.

Here’s a scenario...

Say I go camping, I’m in either the Rivian or the CyberTruck, my trailer has solar. I set up camp, I have fully charged house batteries, can I plug the solar from the trailer directly into the truck?