With temperatures dropping is anyone else already noticing range losses?

[SASSquatch]

Should new buyers understand that there can/will be a hit on your range in the winter? Absolutely

That's the only point I am making. The amount of range loss an EV owner will experience in colder months will vary a great deal based on a range of factors. Not everyone will experience the same range hit in every situation. There is individual variability.

Bringing this back to the R1T - it is still being plagued by phantom drain and so it is not inconceivable that the range loss in cold weather is being exacerbated by whatever is going on there.

Sponsored

 

[SASSquatch]

What I'm saying is, XX kwh required to heat a cabin is a lower % of a large battery, so less range loss in % terms. In other words, a Model 3 SR will have a larger winter range loss (in %) than a Model 3 LR. They use the same amount of energy to condition the cabin and thus lose the same number of miles (this is only part of the total picture, because there's also the battery thermal management, but there are also economies/efficiencies of scale there too).

That assumes that your heating variable is a constant. If we hold that as a constant, a larger battery will lose a smaller percentage of its overall charge than a smaller battery in absolute terms.

So, to keep the math simple, a 10 kWh battery pack will lose 10% of its total capacity if it uses 1 kWh of cabin heating. That same 1 kWh cabin heating in a vehicle with a 100 kWh would reflect only 1% of its total capacity. So in absolute terms, it's the same loss 1 kWh, but in relative terms - it's very different 10% vs 1%.

No argument there.

However, smaller batteries are more efficient than larger batteries. And so, that 1 kWh of cabin heating in the 10 kWh battery pack may net you a longer duration of cabin heating than it would in the 100 kWh battery pack, which would mean you would use less than 1 kWh of total energy with the small battery vs the large battery if the goal was to heat the cabin for the same (or X) duration

The goal with EVs is to limit the total size of the battery and increase the overall efficiency because batteries are heavy, and the larger the size, the lower the efficiency.

 

[SASSquatch]

That seems a little extreme. I routinely drive my 2019 Model S between Bend & Jackson Hole in winter and often experience -20ºF temps and the biggest drop I’ve ever seen was ~20%. The mitigating factor is that I always pre-condition the battery before I leave and I use the cabin heat very sparingly. I’ll be very curious to see what kind of drop I experience with my R1T.

You just pointed out two critical things that can explain how your and my experiences are different (and how mine really isn't "extreme" in my specific instance):

1.) The BMW i3s can't precondition it's battery
2.) I use cabin heat, and most people driving an ICE are going to use cabin heat.

If you use cabin heat normally you will see a significant impact to range when the temperatures are low. There is no way around it.

A lot of EV owners who are claiming "oh, I don't see anywhere near that range loss" are mitigating the expected loss by doing things like pre-conditioning the battery (warming it up) and the cabin while the vehicle is still plugged in and then riding the low energy auxiliary heating options as much as they can (steering wheel, seats, etc).

That is not a fair comparison. If you play around with all of those things in an ICE - you will also see improved MPG as well.

 

[SlaterGS]

That's the only point I am making. The amount of range loss an EV owner will experience in colder months will vary a great deal based on a range of factors. Not everyone will experience the same range hit in every situation. There is individual variability.

Bringing this back to the R1T - it is still being plagued by phantom drain and so it is not inconceivable that the range loss in cold weather is being exacerbated by whatever is going on there.

Here's the thing though. Worst case for an EV in cold weather range loss is likely to occur on short trips where I'd argue most EV owners don't care much about. Battery has to warm up, heat gets pumped up high, get up to highway speed and back to a stop to park.

40% loss on a 10mi trip? Meh
40% loss on a 300mi trip? That's a problem and should definitely be something that new owners should be aware of IF that is the case and the point I'm making is I think that is a bunch of FUD and the "study" is a big part of that.

And yes, phantom drain is a big concern for me with Rivian. Left my Leaf a few weeks ago for almost 3 weeks at the airport and it didn't drop 1%.

 

[SASSquatch]

Here's the thing though. Worst case for an EV in cold weather range loss is likely to occur on short trips where I'd argue most EV owners don't care much about. Battery has to warm up, heat gets pumped up high, get up to highway speed and back to a stop to park.

40% loss on a 10mi trip? Meh
40% loss on a 300mi trip? That's a problem and should definitely be something that new owners should be aware of IF that is the case and the point I'm making is I think that is a bunch of FUD and the "study" is a big part of that.

And yes, phantom drain is a big concern for me with Rivian. Left my Leaf a few weeks ago for almost 3 weeks at the airport and it didn't drop 1%.

I'm not talking about 40% across a single trip. I'm talking about across the battery pack for the charge.

In the summer a single charge gets me 175 miles of range before I'm at about 8% charge.
In the winter, a single charge gets me 100-110 miles before I'm at about 8% charge.

Same commute. Only difference is the temperature, and my use of cabin heat.

 

[SlaterGS]

I'm not talking about 40% across a single trip. I'm talking about across the battery pack for the charge.

In the summer a single charge gets me 175 miles of range before I'm at about 8% charge.
In the winter, a single charge gets me 100-110 miles before I'm at about 8% charge.

Same commute. Only difference is the temperature, and my use of cabin heat.

That makes sense and I think is a critical distinction.
Does that single charge get you more than that 100-110miles if you take a longer trip or is it consistent?
Single charge range reduction over many short trips is really not an issue IMO unless you're concerned about the cost to charge. Good to know about and understand for new buyers though.

In my case, 8-10% loss at best during below freezing temps with some cabin heat and 95% of the time they are all short trips on the highway (~5 miles). If it was quite a bit higher loss then I would just have to plug in at home more often which isn't an issue at all. The hope is that longer distance travel efficiency is better than the data shows on the short range quick battery depletion test they were running.

 

[SASSquatch]

That makes sense and I think is a critical distinction.
Does that single charge get you more than that 100-110miles if you take a longer trip or is it consistent?
Single charge range reduction over many short trips is really not an issue IMO unless you're concerned about the cost to charge. Good to know about and understand for new buyers though.

In my case, 8-10% loss at best during below freezing temps with some cabin heat and 95% of the time they are all short trips on the highway (~5 miles). If it was quite a bit higher loss then I would just have to plug in at home more often which isn't an issue at all. The hope is that longer distance travel efficiency is better than the data shows on the short range quick battery depletion test they were running.

Your efficiency numbers in mi/kWh will tell the story irrespective of duration of your trip. Granted, a shorter trip likely won't look like a significant loss - but I bet you your mi/kWh is much lower for that short duration in 20 degree weather with the heat set to 72 than it would be on a 72 degree day.

 

[SlaterGS]

Your efficiency numbers in mi/kWh will tell the story irrespective of duration of your trip. Granted, a shorter trip likely won't look like a significant loss - but I bet you your mi/kWh is much lower for that short duration in 20 degree weather with the heat set to 72 than it would be on a 72 degree day.

3.9mi/KWh Summer
3.5-3.6mi/KWh Winter

 

[SASSquatch]

3.9mi/KWh Summer
3.5-3.6mi/KWh Winter

You are getting 3.5-3.6 mi/kWh with cabin heat on in 20 degree weather? A NE winter. Not a SW winter?

Call Guinness and report that as a world record...

 

[SASSquatch]

Straight from the Tesla Forum...

 

[SASSquatch]

Consumer Report Test on the Nissan Leaf (and Model 3 as reference) showing reported range, and actual range in cold weather driving with heat on for 3 short drives (22ish miles each).

https://www.consumerreports.org/hyb...-car-for-a-cold-climate-double-down-on-range/

	TESLA MODEL 3	NISSAN LEAF
Advertised range (based on EPA estimate)	310 miles	151 miles
Displayed range at end of 64-mile cold weather test	189 miles	10 miles
Range used to cover 64 miles	121 miles	141 miles

 

[AxelR]

So when is Rivian implementing the heat pump? I guess it’s anyone’s guess but maybe someone can make an educated one.

 

[cardad]

It was 40s-50s yesterday in New England when I took a long drive out to a wedding. I only got ~290miles of range on a full charge in conserve mode with the 21" tires.

I actually almost ran out of charge because I let Rivian nav pick out a charger on my route as I was getting low and it expected to arrive with 10miles of range to spare. There weren't many other chargers in the area so I thought I'd chance it, but as I'm driving I start seeing the delta evaporate from 10 all the way down to 2mi before I decided to bail and charge at a slower charger. There was a single other charger (50kw) between me and the original charger and I got there with like 8mi to spare, charged up about 30mi, and then went to the original charger (a 150-350kw charger).

I drove as slow as possible to try and preserve range when I was getting low and still chewed through battery. It being colder than usual is the only reason I can think of for my efficiency to drop so much.

One thing Rivian navs could really use is the ability to propose several routes with a charger instead of only one option. I get that it's looking for the fastest route minimizing charge times and route deviation, but in times like that I'd rather have been able to select a different route that wouldve gotten me to a charger sooner rather than later. I ended up using plugshare and directly navigating to that midpoint charger.

It could’ve also been a headwind and/or higher use of the heater.

 

[cardad]

As an EV owner for the last 6 years I can tell you from personal experience that colder temperatures mean significant range loss - anywhere from 25-40%.

It isn't just the inefficient resistive heat you are using in the interior. The batteries need to be protected and so the vehicle will use energy to thermally regulate the battery temperature, especially when temperatures drop below 40 degrees.

My carbon fiber bodied BMW i3s, which already uses a heat pump and is uber efficient (I regularly get over 5 mi/kWh in primarily city driving) sees a 40% range hit in the winter.

Did they ever figure out tires that last more than 30k miles for the i3?

 

[mindstormsguy]

Based on significant fleet data collected by Recurrent, an eTron (~85kwh battery) is expected to see about 14% range loss at 20 degree F temps vs. the ideal temp of 80-85. It does not have a heat pump. In TX winters (35-45 temps), the range loss I experienced was hardly noticeable, 10% or less. Eventually Recurrent will have enough data to report the same for Rivians.

no, the etron does have a heat pump.

Sponsored