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Why exactly is it so cumbersome to use the multitude of charging networks?

gd_r1t

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I would be fine with gas pump experience and credit card readers at all DC stations.

It’d be great if a user could have single account with their CC saved and use Plug & Charge at any station . But that’d require all the networks to integrate with each other for roaming and using some central account (one of the networks? The car manufacturer? Some dedicated aggregator for this purpose?)
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ajdelange

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Some dedicated aggregator for this purpose?
This is, of course, entirely doable. The banking industry did it and the airline industry did it. And the automotive industry is working on it. Standards are being hammered out for car to terminal and terminal to hub secure communication. It's just that the hammering is taking a long time as it often does. The other problem is the communications transport layer in remote places. Tesla has Starlink available to them and other operators could use that too I suppose.
 

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I would be fine with gas pump experience and credit card readers at all DC stations.

It’d be great if a user could have single account with their CC saved and use Plug & Charge at any station . But that’d require all the networks to integrate with each other for roaming and using some central account (one of the networks? The car manufacturer? Some dedicated aggregator for this purpose?)
I think it's an attempt to avoid having to pay the ridiculous amount of merchant fees for all of the small value charges the networks would be seeing.
 

mindstormsguy

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I think it's an attempt to avoid having to pay the ridiculous amount of merchant fees for all of the small value charges the networks would be seeing.
If that’s the motivation, it’s not working with me. I have my recharge value set as low as possible, and that often results in multiple account refills per charge. I don’t like having $30 sitting in 6 different network operator accounts. It’s a very anti-consumer system.
 

KiloV

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I did my first DCFC yesterday. I only did it to ensure my new truck didn't have any issues with DCFC like a few random unlucky owners had before I went on a long trip. There is a very new EVgo station at a Sheetz with 350kW chargers. Couldn't connect through the Rivian app. I had downloaded several of the usual company apps on my phone, but apparently never actually created an account for EVgo. So I just decided to use the credit card. And it worked just like a gas pump. Well other than a gas pump is card, then insert pump. This is insert cord, then card. Either way, same number of steps and just as convenient.

Charge itself was outstanding. I started at 27%. Ramped almost immediately to 211-212 kW. Held that until a Walmart delivery EV pulled in to the 350 kW charger instead of the empty 150 kW charger next to me. She plugged in and drew 73 kW to her van, and my truck immediately limited to 173 kW because of the charger. Held that all the way to >60% then never tapered lower than 120s-130s by my 70% target. Used 62.6 kWh, 61.5 of which went to the battery adding a little over 140 miles of range in 23 minutes. So the add 140 miles in 20 minutes is absolutely doable. I had just installed the OTA update that morning. This station is 0.30c/min, so bill was only $6.90. That much gas in my Fusion hybrid getting close to 40 mpg would have been around $15. I'll take that.

Bottom line, the pull up, plug, and insert credit card option for this EVgo 350 kW charger worked just as conveniently as a gas pump.

200 mile trip later this week will include a stop at an Electrify America unit.
Same here. I haven't used every charging network out there, but I've always (so far) been able to just insert a credit card, get authorized and start charging. Which networks don't accept credit cards at the charger?
 

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KiloV

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This is, of course, entirely doable. The banking industry did it and the airline industry did it. And the automotive industry is working on it. Standards are being hammered out for car to terminal and terminal to hub secure communication. It's just that the hammering is taking a long time as it often does. The other problem is the communications transport layer in remote places. Tesla has Starlink available to them and other operators could use that too I suppose.
Agreed. Bank/ATM interoperability is an obvious parallel. It'll come, I think; it'll just take time.
 
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Same here. I haven't used every charging network out there, but I've always (so far) been able to just insert a credit card, get authorized and start charging. Which networks don't accept credit cards at the charger?
Flo is the only one that was explicitly clear about this and said right on the charger that a Flo account is required to use the charger. I think I tried tapping my card at one or two different networks and just got a message that was like "card not recognized" that I took to mean the charger was looking for a charge card and not a credit card, or could take a credit card but the card needed to already be associated with an account.

I also tried tapping my phone in one or two cases to see if GPay would work and got a similar response.

In the end I used Flo almost exclusively on my trip because it was the only charger that was over 50kw (though it was supposed to be 125kw and I could only get ~90) in the area and the only one that worked reliably (I kept finding charge points that didn't have an internet connection to authorize payment or be activated).
 
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Btw, as long as I'm ranting about charging let me throw some shade Rivian's way. The Rivian app has these chargers listed in its charger map and it has "start charger" buttons which I tried a couple of times, but I'm pretty sure that that only works on chargepoints. Has anyone been able to use the Rivian app to start anything else?

That was yet another step in trying to use foreign charging networks that contributed to the cumbersome process.
 

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If that’s the motivation, it’s not working with me. I have my recharge value set as low as possible, and that often results in multiple account refills per charge. I don’t like having $30 sitting in 6 different network operator accounts. It’s a very anti-consumer system.
With the Rivian it's kind of a different story. Cars having more than 100kWh of battery is a thing that started this year. Most EVs still have 60-70kWh, and the value of the charge for those on a trip would be a lot less.
 

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I have been using my ChargePoint account and activating by holding the phone up to the charger as I always have. I know the Rivian is linked to my ChargePoint account but I have no clue how to take advantage of this or if there even is an advantage. Has anyone activated a ChargePoint session from the Rivian or Rivian app? Is there a discount? Apologies for my ignorance.
 

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Same here. I haven't used every charging network out there, but I've always (so far) been able to just insert a credit card, get authorized and start charging. Which networks don't accept credit cards at the charger?
Probably not what you mean but if you're a "+" member of Electrify America you need to use the app apple/google pay. The savings are substantial especially for a vehicle with such a large battery. It's $4/month but would save $12+ off a full charge of the battery. I don't think there is a way to pay directly with a credit card and it's a few extra (frustratingly slow) taps on the touch screen to enable the discount.

To my point earlier it's so cheap that it's worth noting in California if you charge at most charging networks between 4-9pm (when consumers pay peak pricing) it's actually significantly cheaper than charging at home. One more lost revenue opportunity / sign of a relatively immature market.

I have been using my ChargePoint account and activating by holding the phone up to the charger as I always have. I know the Rivian is linked to my ChargePoint account but I have no clue how to take advantage of this or if there even is an advantage. Has anyone activated a ChargePoint session from the Rivian or Rivian app? Is there a discount? Apologies for my ignorance.
The catch is that you have to find a working chargepoint charger to test this theory 🥁. They're really bad where I live and I've never gotten one to work. I never even thought to be brave enough to try some fancy integration in the app.
 

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Charge itself was outstanding. I started at 27%. Ramped almost immediately to 211-212 kW. Held that until a Walmart delivery EV pulled in to the 350 kW charger instead of the empty 150 kW charger next to me. She plugged in and drew 73 kW to her van, and my truck immediately limited to 173 kW because of the charger. Held that all the way to >60% then never tapered lower than 120s-130s by my 70% target. Used 62.6 kWh, 61.5 of which went to the battery adding a little over 140 miles of range in 23 minutes. So the add 140 miles in 20 minutes is absolutely doable.
That curve sounds like a standard curve. Whenever I charge at a 350 I see over 200 for just a couple of minutes, then it drops down to 170ish for a good bit, then 150ish, then 80ish, then levels off around 50 once I get up to about 80%

Granted I've not done a DCFC w/ the new update, so maybe it's changed, but prior to the update what you describe is what I'd see whenever I used a charger regardless of any other vehicles at the station.
 

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That curve sounds like a standard curve. Whenever I charge at a 350 I see over 200 for just a couple of minutes, then it drops down to 170ish for a good bit, then 150ish, then 80ish, then levels off around 50 once I get up to about 80%

Granted I've not done a DCFC w/ the new update, so maybe it's changed, but prior to the update what you describe is what I'd see whenever I used a charger regardless of any other vehicles at the station.
Could be. But once it dropped to 173 it added a message that it was limited by the charger, so that would seem to imply it was trying/willing to get more.
 

mgc0216

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Could be. But once it dropped to 173 it added a message that it was limited by the charger, so that would seem to imply it was trying/willing to get more.
Mine says that too even when nobody other vehicles are charging.. I'm not convinced that error means anything as the curved is almost identical on every DCFC charge I do regardless of that error.

For referenceI I have about 8,100 miles on my truck and have done two 2,000+ mile road trips where almost every charge stop was EA - so I have a decent data set to draw on.
 

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Without Tesla plug-n-charge capabilities, this is one of the only solutions.

I think the only alternative solution is to have credit card readers at each station. This would increase manufacturing costs and increase complexity/points of failure. But it would offer a similar experience to what many consumers have become accustomed to.

For their to be widespread consumer adoption, the barrier to entry needs to be reduced.

There is simply too much friction.

Mobile apps and payment authorization aside; the amount of dongles and styles of charging ports is overwhelmingly confusing for first time EV buyers. Imagine trying to get non-technical consumers to learn all the nuances of J1772, CHAdeMO, NEMA 14-50, CCS, 120v wall outlet, etc.

I will sound like a Tesla fanboy here, but IMO, Tesla has it figured out. The whole charging experience is exactly what people want. While Tesla charging port is not a universal standard, companies like Aptera make the argument that it should be the standard for US consumers - and I agree.

Here is my argument;

  • It works. It's reliable. Like full stop. It just works. We absolutely cannot say that about CCS DCFC. The unreliable CCS DCFC are a black eye for the industry and the movement.
  • CCS is big. Clunky. Wasteful (in design). Even Ancient looking. Compare this with the Tesla plug, which is smaller than a J1772. Not only is it reliable, but it is... elegant.
  • Winner takes all. Okay - not really. But game recognize game. Tesla, ya did it. You built the first widely sought out EV, you built a nationwide charging network, you own the factories that can produce more than 25,000 superchargers a year. You win. What I really mean is; momentum like this is unstoppable. Think of it like Europe and USB-C charging standard. There is too much momentum behind one style. It seems counterintuitive to reinvent the wheel, especially when the new wheel is... bulkier & less reliable
  • If Tesla licensed their port and charging tech, everyone would be better off. There would be less barriers to Tesla opening their supercharger network. There would be more reliable charging experiences. There would be more charging options. The doors that cover the charging ports wouldn't need to be so massive, so vehicles would be able to have sleeker designs

Of all the paths forward; everyone switching to Tesla connector in USA seems to be the....best solution. Every solution sucks, in its own way. But this way sucks...the least.

Or put it differently; if we don't unite behind the Tesla standard - fine, but give me something reliable that doesn't take 15 different accounts and mobile apps. This doesn't exist. So....what other options do we have? I know I don't want to deal with dongle after dongle, and mobile app after mobile app. I can't be alone - right?


The R1T is my first EV and my home charger is ChargePoint (via my apartment complex) which has been fairly straightforward given Rivian's partnership and the integration with the Rivian app (other than an annoyingly long wait time from charger selection to its activation/unlock), but I did a roadtrip a few weeks ago and still can't get over how seemingly unnecessarily complex it is to use other networks. In New England I've encountered: ChargePoint, EVGo, Flo, EA, and Enel X.

Why does every charger need its own app, accounts, and payment information? Each time I encountered a new charger it was a terrible experience to need to sit there for 20 minutes trying to download an app on e.g. backwoods Vermont cellular data, then trying to create an account as I jump between apps, email, texts, web, etc. trying to verify everything, then of course they don't just work via Google/Apple Pay and require manually adding credit cards to your account, and of course there's the sitting and waiting for things to go through, activate/unlock, verify, etc. Not to mention the times I went through all of that just to find that the charger's internet connection isn't working and can't be activated regardless. And now of course I'm getting random charge cards in the mail and some apps require preloading your account with money and all these other hassles.

Imagine needing to download apps and create accounts for Shell, BP, Citgo, Speedway, etc. just to pump gas. I can't for the life of me figure out why you can't just tap your credit card and go. Please tell me there's some sane reason for all of this nonsense other than data collection.
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